Combat Style needs to go

[Scrynor]

So Oyln and Kalist have basically reinforced what I already believe. I'm going to take on too many topics in one post but alas, I'm me (sorry).

Without a severe overhaul that is impossible to do all at once (can't strip w/o replacement, the real question is not "should we get rid of combat styles?". The question is "how influential should combat style advantage be?"

It currently has a huge impact. It's arguably the dominant factor in combat. It has:

Natural "combat bonuses" including diminishing dodge, especially against dexterous characters
(Aside, I have always disliked how obfuscated this is... just tell us the numbers)

Concentrate

Powerful skill dependencies (overhead crush, barrage, hobble sideswipe)

Warlord forms dependency

It's fine for one class to care more about something than another but when it's RPS if you're equally skilled then it's luck. If one class ruins you when they get advantage in a disproportionate way then it devolves. Other classes abilities become not worth using if it sacrifices your ability to stay out of disadvantage.

So then we get to the double triangles. AKA "rogue classes suck".

Weapon type has tied to it:

Natural "combat bonuses" including diminishing parry.

Less powerful skill dependencies (uncanny attack, clobber, sidestep)

The issue with double triangles is that it creates a 9 box grid of states. It's really hard to get double advantage. So inherently, weapon type advantage would have to be equal to combat style advantage to push an advantage disadvantage trade. And it just isn't. Even if the type advantage skills were as good as the style skills (they aren't), there is still all the extra stuff style advantage has tied to it that type advantage doesn't.

Fighter types are the kings of auto damage. More attacks, more AC, more defenses, more hit points. As long as style advantage so heavily influences auto damage you can't trade advantages and advantage based skills in near equal fashion. It's impossible.

This is why an elite PKer like Kalist can honestly state he can largely ignore weapon type. He can. The triangles aren't equal and rogue classes can't punish him for ignoring it. (I actually kind of wonder if this didn't just happen because thieves and shadows can't get into warlords. It's the melee balance playground so maybe style has been built up and type hasn't?)

So in the current state, why even have two triangles? Just can weapon type like Olyn says. Tie the type skills to style and then they can be independently balanced instead of going head to head with the style skills.

Now, on Olyn's proposal to add more lag to switching weapons:

There are two things I don't like about the lag proposal
1) this will really just drive people to flee and switch weapons out of combat. I already dislike how flee centric and tracking centric combat is. It's thematically terrible, cumbersome, and leads to long fights. It would be great if there could actually be an unbroken 6-10 round exchange where players tactically exchange skills and the cat and mouse game begins at big and nasty wounds
2) It further consumes time doing actions that are general instead of class specific. You've got all these classes and skills and your just washing them out and making classes play more general. It's weird to me that martial combat uses its time to general flee / murder and weapon switch 5x more than class skills.

Adding lag to switching is treating a symptom to me. The cause is that combat advantage has outsized importance. The question is how important do you want it to be? If you reign it in appropriately you won't feel the need to add lag.

I think you could re-baseline combat pretty easily then take your time doing whatever with skills.

1) ditch weapon type completely, tie those skills to combat ad
2) remove everything about combat advantage that influences defenses
3) add a punishment to fleeing like God (dnd) intended by making quick volley a core mechanic regardless of weapon. Opponent gets a free swing when you flee
4) give skirmish classes an ability to negate the above core mechanic

Points 3 and 4 are basically the tried and true DnD mechanic. Give fleeing a penalty and let skirmish classes tumble to avoid that penalty. This encourages staying in combat.

Ok, I'm done. Hope somebody reads it and it at least provoked some thoughts. Cheers mates.

[Scrynor]

@Dav - I think manually entering a level of aggressiveness could be a great replacement for getting rid of weapon type and striping auto damage and defense modification from style. It would be very clean.

Combat style controls skill usage and efficacy. Set aggressiveness controls auto damage / defenses mods. Some weapon types are better or worse at aggressiveness settings. Here's the table.

[Davairus]

Actually I think a lot of this headache would go away if hobble simply went off weapon advantage, here are some reasons why I think it could work better like that:

(I) disarm (and berserker rake) require a weapon advantage, so we already teach that is important to maintain. (a corollary, this is better for dex warriors who already need the weapon advantage to disarm even more so than a high strength warrior does)
(II) losing parry with disarm is comparable to losing dodge chance with hobble, so its a similar 'existential threat', i.e. it does not make weapon advantage really much more "critical" while consolidating worry for everyone else into watching that one prompt for a scary red colour that appears to need addressing ASAP before both your defenses get dismantled
(III) warriors have a load of favored weapons, and the entire resist and vuln system also leans much more into worrying about main hand weapon than combat style (like the dwarf axe favored weapon providing an advantage over water cubes). so it would make more sense if they actually thought about and then used these favored weapons instead of it just a "whatever works" system of weapon agnostic combat style (mainly the hobbles)
(IV) we also do other interesting weapon-based stuff like attacks are always wild on every parry that was failed because of weapon advantage, spears having an impact on dodge, so there's more example of just caring more about what weapon you use than your combat style
(V) it is obviously easier to attack (and defend) since you only need to switch one weapon instead of potentially two weapons
(VI) currently, it seems like warriors can get out of situations where you were kicking their ass by just double grip/hobble, and that actually seems cheesy. that does absolutely nothing if hobble wasnt combat style
(VII) Also, mages already weapon ward to opt out. but we dont want weapon ward to also screw combat styles, and that fixes this inconsistency

If you think about the impact of that on the actual flow of combat, it is possible the warrior would initially go with dirt (no pre-requisite) or disarm/hobble (req. weapon adv.) or the composite combat style skills, or if theyre feeling OP they could even just bash you. but I think because of the amount of importance this change puts onto weapon advantage, then it seems generally makes sense for that guy to prioritize the weapon advantage first, then go for a combat style once they have you trapped in the fight and want the concentrate damage, extra attacks when you flee, etc. of course the fight unfolds and you have to adjust to missed dirts, disepnsing a nice RNG ass whupping and bash becoming rational due to being ahead a lot.

The issue with that is I'm not sure what we would do with monks. Like, I guess they could just always be vuln to hobble when a style isnt 'activated', but then also make monk style activation cause immunity (which would also strip hobble), so it isnt very worrying for them. overall, I got a feeling this hobble off weapon type would be better for the game across quite a few dimensions though.

[Ozaru]

please no changes, just get better at the game or be happy with your own mediocrity.

[twerpalina]

In response to OP and the original argument:

Having enough experience with using combat styles and fighting some of the most nimble players, I really dare you to go make a script that automatically switches your combat style with whatever trigger/action. Not only you will be underwhelmed realizing you are still garbo but it's also a deathwish.

I once explained how I used mine on Szrevan.

aliases; du = dual wield, wm = shield, two = 2hander
1 = wield blade, 2 = wield shaft, 3 = wield segment

it's not hard to do something like "1, enter, du, enter, 0 (hobble for me), enter" takes me less than a second to write all this and it gives me complete control over when and what, so I can bait and time my swaps which are CRUCIAL.

If I'd meet someone who uses triggers for switching, I'd abuse the fuck out of that completely castrating them.

[Davairus]

That sounds very similar to any FPS twerpalina, very easy to use and popular for weapon changes. of course the other thing any FPS has is dead air while your toon is swapping its weapon

[Phostan]

The day I accept my mediocrity you can just start calling me Bozaru.

[Ozaru]

Why even post about pk, your greatest achievement is running in circles laughing saying you can't even catch me. You have 0 intention of ever fighting someone you know u can lose to. Just make a thief and give yourself hell stream. Being an immortal with all the perks and insider knowledge you ahve gained after 3 decades isn't enough?

[Scrynor]

This talk of adjusting your macros and aliases after you learn the opponents weapons is kind of in line with Phostan's original post though isn't it? It's something vets can do and those less comfortable can't. If that's part of elite combat that's being kept why not lean on and do something official like the weapon slots I suggested originally? It would streamline and make it more accessible for all and tell players "you should do this".

Twerp, I remember you posting your aliases way back. I was curious then and I still am now, how does this with without variables for the type switch alias? To my knowledge the built in game aliases cannot do references.
You cannot do
Alias du wield main | dual off
Alias seg Alias main flail | Alias off whip

[Ozaru]

my favorite phostan quote

Phostan — 05/30/2022 12:09 AM
I'm pretty sure you were about ready to cry at your keyboard from the hard trolling
funniest shit I'd done in a long time. I was vibing hard on the mounting frustration.
Pretty much popped half-mast from the trolling, your mom woulda been so wet if she'd seen me in action.

[Davairus]

RIP this thread, its been a blast.

[twerpalina]

Scrynor, i use JMC variables that i set usually before each fight.

I had few aliases more:

pri sword = sets mainhand variable to sword
sec dagger = sets secondary weapon to dagger
two axe = sets twohander to axe

shaft mace = sets shaft weapon to mace to be used when i press 2 {wield $shaft}
and so on

#alias du {rem shield;dual $sec}
#alias wm {rem $sec;wear shield}
#alias two {grip $two}

#alias 1 {wield $blade}
#alias 2 {wield $shaft}
#alias 3 {wield $seg}


You don't really need it, but i liked to organize my weapons before each fight properly w/o having to remake all the aliases.

You can accomplish exactly the same scenario with simple ingame aliases
just replace $blade $two $pri etc. variables in aliases with weapon keywords.

Just means you have to write alias 2 wield mace or alias 2 wield axe
instead of shaft axe or shaft mace

The only cheese I had was that I had my alias q overwritten each time I swapped stance to adjust for overhead, barrage, sideswipe. Just to save buttonspace

#alias wm {rem $sec;wear shield;#alias q sideswipe}

as one of the examples.


Also, the most important thing for combat swapping (at least back then, idk what new delay changes exist) was the timing e.g. the main reason actions/triggers would not work optimally. You really want to sometimes delay or doubleswitch style to bait and fake opponent into using a skill in disadvantage especially when fighting warrior vs warrior. You fight someone enough you can anticipate when they swap, so you pre-swap before them or delay your own swap for when they are about to hit their combat style skill and absolutely dumpster people.

Do not change combat styles for this is one of the only ways for undergeared people to actually outplay overgeared opponents (in fights where styles actually matter at least)

[Scrynor]

Thanks for the detailed reply! Very insightful for the uninitiated on fighter class vs fighter class. And always interesting to see how similar or differentother people's setups are to my own.

Reading yours (and mine) I still can't help but think how much simpler it all gets if there are official weapon slots in your equipment load out with swap commands. Basically like a barbarian in d4 without the auto draw on skill use.

[Davairus]

the result we dont want is you guys end upusing macros as a workaround for not being able to handle it, e.g. type Q to use <combat skill> and dont think about what to use. thats not a good result. definitely not something to ban people for but the game just shouldnt be that hard that its better to just "q" everything

[twerpalina]

With the use of MSDP mappers, tick triggers, triggers for 1000 million things that people post here and countless of other advanced mudlet scripts, having re-bindable skill key is the least of my concerns imo.

I don't play this game anymore because it has turned into who can code their mapper and triggers betters instead of playing the raw game.

[jaran]

Speaking as somebody who has played this game for many years on and off and who can barely create a macro never mind any sort of script. I'd like to claim now that in every moment in the game that I have sucked and generally been awful (99%) of the time, I'm claiming now that it is actually not my fault and instead will believe that every opponent I am up against is a scripting master and I don't stand a chance so ITS NOT ME.

This does make me feel a bit better so thanks.

[rhovhard]

This thread needs Burzuk to come in and drop some knowledge

[Davairus]

"Half the people are complaining, half of them like it, seems balanced to me!"

rhovhard - your gag ability goes in next patch so lets start out by just acknowledge that. You have good ideas, and are worth listening to. Maybe I dont like the initial pitch but I think you recognize where the work needs to be done. I would rather hear what YOU have to say honestly.

I was thinking an idea worth a shot at, is perhaps hobble and concentrate could change to defensive skills instead of shredding your opponents armor and dodge skill. Numerically you'd have the same outcome, either you tank better or deal more damage, so who cares, but a longer fight will give the player more chances to win because of skill instead of winning because of burst. That is also easier to understand, it means you would go for combat style advantage to improve defense, or weapon advantage for more offense. I like that two-handed helps parry vs dual wield. and they could be trivially also made easier to shield block if they arent already so. BTW I am not suggesting to just rip up every warrior skill in the game, keep some offence, but this thread might just be saying its due to put warriors in their proper place (tanky).

[twerpalina]

"I was thinking an idea worth a shot at, is perhaps hobble and concentrate could change to defensive skills instead"

You could have both with an ease, simply make hobble reduce % of dex which means less hitroll and less dodge.

[rhovhard]

Davairus - I am beyond flattered. Thank you. I haven't gotten a single PK since I came back but this makes my day!

I understood the combat/weapon styles was Burzuk's baby, so I would actually like to hear what he would say about the recent complaints. Maybe with the extent of scripting or other modifications (e.g., reduced cooldown for switching weapons), the combat system would not have passed play testing. Maybe he still thinks it's the best solution or he can propose patches that avoid problems that came up in development.

I voted to change the system. I can share my issues but I dont know the best solution. My core problem is that the best weapon/style combo is absolute and dominant, which kills the rock/paper/scissors mystique. Absolute meaning its known from the prompt before any blows are exchanged which switches are needed to win the matchup without any risk. Dominant means that outdamaging and out-skilling the weaker position seems guaranteed. If either of those points caused risks that could balance the decision to switch, it would feel more like boulder/parchment/shears and less like finding that 10mm socket.

With every other match up, optimizing for one threat diverts resources from another. Wearing saves reduces damage output. There's an optimal middle ground for each opponent that's not trivial (for me) to predict.

Uncategorized list of ways to address the above:

1. Split damage and skill dominance by having the optimal weapon/style match up cause the most damage but open up skill vulnerabilities, or vice-versa. If I'm in dominant style, I'm easier to hobble and clobber or my skills are less effective.

2. Split weapon and combat style matchup by having players choose dominance in one or the other to exploit.

3. Keep everything the same but dial down the effectiveness. If the gains were reduced, any existing risks for switching constantly would be more pronounced.

4. Force people to commit more. I chose rock and you chose paper, now I'm stuck fleeing or needing to compensate for the poor matchup until adrenaline wears off, or something. NOW what are you going to choose next time? This ranges from choosing a style at creation to a 2 tick cooldown for fully transitioning into a new style.

It's also possible to use carrots. I'll stay in a poor matchup if there's a cool skill I can only use when I've remained in one style for sufficiently long. I can always switch right away to avoid being pummeled, but I can stay the course if my damage will increase.

5. Add a new element that balances the above. (Meta: some muds balance by nerfing, some by making new, more powerful options. I strongly prefer the former for reasons.) I can imagine combat height- "You hold your weapon high." "You fight low to the ground." options that could balance by adding decisions and risk.

6. Add a random or "undisciplined" style option that adds risk to choosing any one style. Through deliberate obfuscation or feral instinct, the fighting style rapidly changes or somehow breaks the unspoken agreed-upon boundaries between the different formal styles of combat.