Ceridwels neutral paladin thread

[Ceridwel]

Been suggesting this for a few years so throwing it out there again:

A neutral-aligned version of Paladin/DK. A hybrid class that has 3rd attack, some healing, detect invis, and its own bells and whistles like Pally/DKs have but that can be neutral-aligned. This would allow them to be Keepers and a more neutral version of Justice than lawful pallys/dks can be today.

[Ceridwel]

Background context: https://abandonedrealms.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13579

[Ashlyn]

Bard kind of fits the bill, just give them detect maybe

[Davairus]

Ceridwel, paladins and dark-knights are NOT warriors with "bells and whistles" tacked on, they have a suit of powerful afflictives that rivals anything the pure mage guilds have to offer. Bells and whistles. My god. Paladins fire the wrath of the gods. Dark-knights tap into demonology and fire an array of curses from the necromancer playbook. That is what we are calling bells and whistles? Its gotta be half the class's power at the least. Also , with respect, your suggestion is so vague that it could be interpreted so many ways, iand while yes it could be an option for Keepers, 99% more likely it will only lead to a player creating a typically aloof neutral character that just hoards all the cool shit that paladins/DKNs depend on to do good/evil with. Also players can already join warlords / keepers as neutrals with warriors and have a warrior with bells and whistles. Lets say we put all that aside though. A neutral version of a paladin is going to look like... what, exactly? An inventor with flamethrowers bolted onto his armor? An armorer, a tinkrer? Just a paladin that is neutral? dont just give me cool words, or justl link me dead threads, give me freshness, substance and detail. Also, there is no way this can be done by end of january.

[BlackWidow]

Having played both hybrid types...

Paladins and DKs sure as hell are NOT simply warriors with additional bells and whistles. Their ability to cast spells sets them distinctly apart. They both have the summon spell to prevent their quarry from getting away. Wrath is one of the most powerful spells in the game if used correctly (spamming it or using it on low-health player enemies is not using it properly). The DK is an antithesis to the paladin; if you want something in between you need to resolve that part of the lore first somehow (which may be doable).

Both of them have power which scales directly with the strength of their armour, which is not something a warrior cares about. Set parry and fencing are much more effective with powerful heavy armor and light armor/clothing respectively.

If you want a "neutral class with third attack with detect invis and some healing" to paraphrase what you're saying, Ceridwel, all you have to do is play a neutral Warlord which isn't a monk. No new class is required for that, and I'm sure Davairus is willing to give just about anyone a chance so long as they don't delete within two months.

If I were to consider this in any way seriously though, a dragoon is what comes to mind as a possibility. Just make them a neutral horseman/rider (though that begs the question: why couldn't they be good or evil instead?). Or possibly a yeoman if we wanted an option which is specifically lawful (SLASH-EM comes to mind as a reference for the latter). One of the king's men, or possibly an independent mercenary.

[Ceridwel]

I wasn't aware this was a "shit on anyone's idea that you don't like" thread.

[Davairus]

Its garbage in, garbage out dude. All you provided is "A hybrid class that has 3rd attack, some healing, detect invis, and its own bells and whistles like Pally/DKs have but that can be neutral-aligned." I put your sentence into google bard and its reply was a class called "neutralpaladin" with a skill called "bells and whistles". fuckin billion dollar AI came up with nothing. Am I supposed to just work two years on it and see if I made what you wanted?

[Dogran]

Alright guys, so let’s make this productive. Basically dav is saying don’t suggest something this intensive and then expect him to come up with all the materials. Give a framework of ideas and if it makes sense and gains traction maybe? Of course wishlist is for stuff that can be accomplished in 3-4 hours, not months of coding/testing to make it work. Still I think it would be fun to play with this idea and see what we come up with. Idea’s would look like this.

Spellsword

Level 1:
Mace Sword Dagger Staff Axe Parry Enhanced Damage Hand to hand Wish Devote Spear Burning Hands
Level 3:
Dirt Kicking
Level 4:
Detect Invis Invis
Level 5:
Armor Fast Healing
Level 6:
Dodge Meditation
Level 7:
Lore
Level 8:
Second Attack Haggle
Level 10:
Flame Arrow Faerie Fire
Level 12
Earthquake Bash
Level 13
Frenzy
Level 15
Set Parry Mystic Armor(holy armor comparative)
Level 18
Summon dual wield Disarm
Level 20
Charge
Level 22
Trip Throw
Level 25
Third Attack
Level 27
Offensive spell
Level 29
Debuff Spell
Level 31
Sanctuary
Level 31
Offensive spell
Level 33
I am going to stop here, and you guys can take this apart, add to, change etc. Let me know what you guys think.

[Davairus]

Yes Dogran that is a lot better as a starting point.

[dead]

First off, thanks for a productive start Dogram.
When reading the skill/spell list I thought to myself, why devote? Why make a neutral paladin religious?
I was thinking a non religious battlecaster /magewarrior /spellsword.
Casting like a invoker, or another of the true "magic" users. Add some utility magic in exchange for some of the warrior training.

[lionSpyre]

I’m with Ceridwel in that I love the idea of the neutral hybrid class, although I think Davairus makes some solid points about how they could upset the balance of equipment.

I want to ponder for a bit on this skill list that Dogran threw out there, but conceptually, I’d originally thought of this neutral hybrid as a Druid-based hybrid, a green or eldritch knight of sorts. However, I think things might be more interesting if you make them more like psionic knights - individuals who have a modicum of psi power and make up for the rest with physical prowess. This could create some interesting armor / defense synergies and a unique spell list that augments physical power with psionic ability. No clear direction yet on why they’d have to be neutral (since psions can be whatever they’d like).

I’ll come back later with a more fleshed out spell list when I get the time, but I thought the idea was worth throwing out there.

[Davairus]

If a neutral player can be an invoker in plate armor then they're not going to be many invokers afterwards. I was looking around and I noticed the obvious aquaman type shit in river wood. We have tritons in plate over there. I imagine such a class would have control over water so summon whirlpools, underwater breathing, and command the fishes. of course triton is a race though right. I could have said the same about the galaxy area, just have a void knight that is a "guardian of the galaxy" and does cosmic themed spells. or a sand knight that could make sense to be a guardian of the deserts, and have a bunch of spells htat manipulate sand and dirt. The point though is to pick one element and not just make it able to do everything, because otherwise druids and invokers dont make sense to roll

[Dogran]

I agree with that a lot. It would be nice to get a board of people together jn the same discord room to discuss something like this and put together something a little more complete. My idea wasn't meant to be the total basis, but just a quick five minutes of grabbing necessary skills. I agree with what dav days about making it something different and would be totally interested in seeing options like that. Let me know if some of you are interested in scheduling a time to put together a serious brainstorm session.

[BlackWidow]

If we go for the aquatic thing, spears should definitely be one of the allowed weapons (which isn't on the list currently given). I can't see aquatic types lacking the ability to use a trident proficiently...

[BlackWidow]

Can't edit, but that list DOES have spears and it just wasn't in with the majority of the weapon skills at level 1.

[BlackWidow]

Having said what I did... If the dragoon (mounted horseman/rider) idea were implemented I could imagine mounted combat being changed. The way mounted combat is currently handled seems to assume that people who fight with mounts essentially use them as stationary platforms. What if a mounted charge could do spectacular damage if somebody used it while galloping their mount towards an opponent? Do we really want the same concept with the mounts? What about knocking an opponent's worn shield from their grasp while charging (which is the goal of a modern joust)? What about the possibility of hitting an opponent while riding past them, then having to rein in the mount before making another pass?

I realize I'm thread hijacking here but I'm just throwing out that idea again and some related thoughts which might be worth considering anyway...

[BlackWidow]

Hate that I can't edit, but...

I disagree with the list Dogran gave because no class currently has both dodge AND set parry. Dodging is for rogues and other nimble types; set parry is specifically for those who use heavy armour because it involves using the weight of the armour to brace the weapon and absorb the impact of the attack. Unless we change mechanics greatly or do away with logic, set parry and dodge do not belong together.

[dead]

Completely agree to not make a invoker in plate with all the different spells. Was thinking along the same lines as Dav to have specializations.
It makes a lot of sense with how Pally and DK are currently set up with 3 different types. To have a neutral version also have 3 types.
All get sanc, but maybe only water gets create water/food, and more defensive spells, since and cannot think of offensive water spells. Fire gets no water or food?, and more offensive spells. Lightning/earth something more in the middle. Create food, no water, lightning bolt and invis? Dunno.

Good idea to real-time hash it out on discord, balance is hard...

[Dogran]

My quick thrown together idea was never meant to be the end result. The whole point was to actually put some effort into making something to show what dav was saying. If we do the work and put something together ie something a rational sounding board can put together then maybe dav will consider coding and balancing it for release.

[Ashlyn]

Mystic knight/Spellsword

They have the ability to enhance their damage/damage type with different elemental abilities. Flamestrike for fire damage to their weapon, chill touch for ice, shocking grasp, exorcism, water ball etc. Low level spells. Let them build up charges similar to druid staff. They get damage type of the spells they use and also build charges. They can use their charges to enhance defense against those elements or physical(earth) or use max charges for a more powerful form of the spell(Fireball, Iceball level).

Give them up to third attack, no shield block. Sword, dagger, spear, mace, whip only. Give them a passive ability to deflect magic with a cooldown as a defense. Parry and dodge dual wield and dual parry, but no set parry or holy/unholy armor. Give them armor and stone skin spell. Weapon ward, Fencing(allowed with heavy armor). Meditation and fast healing. Detect invis and invis, identify, word of recall and shield spell. Soul siphon for mana management and water charges for healing.