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rakham
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 15
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 Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 6:01 am Post subject: wounding shot |
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why was wounding shot nerfed? i understand that its intended to be more effective against wounded opponents, and it always was. rangers are the weakest warrior type class, and depend on things like wounding shot. its very easy to counter. hold recall;quaff recall. or use a shield. or protective shield.
i dont see how being in perfect health and standing around doing nothing protects a person more than a guy that is very hurt and quite possibly doing all he can to protect his vital parts.
at least make wounding shot be able to fire during combat now that this change has been made? |
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rakham
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 6:19 am Post subject: |
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for those who dont know, since the change was sent only to rangers, wounding shot is now completely reliant on how hurt your enemy is. this pretty much negates the effect of wounding shot, as you cant use it in combat, you cant use it if your enemy is in combat, and anyone that is mostly dead wont stick around long enough to let you catch up.
What are "Fighter Classes"?
This refers to the group of classes of warrior, berserker and ranger.
Fighters are melee, and characterised by their three defences. A fighter is the best suited in the group to boldly tank the dangers the others in his party will face. They depend upon physical force (from weapons) to defeat the enemy. A fighter class has no spells, and no way to use magic besides potions. This gives them problems with mobility. The skill "bash" (and its variants) is what gives fighters the right to call themselves the Kings of melee.
rangers have the least HP's of the melee class. they dont get hobble or bash, or any other lag for that matter. they had wounding shot, now they have nothing.
yes, they have camouflage and herb, which made up for lack of offensive abilities (such as hobble and overhead crush) and low health, but now their saving grace just got nerfed.
so i guess im gonna ask...why? |
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rakham
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| and in case you want to bring up the intention of the skill, the helpfile was changed after the fact. |
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Burzuk
Implementor
Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 529
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 7:14 am Post subject: Re: wounding shot |
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| rakham wrote: |
| why was wounding shot nerfed? |
Wasn't a "nerfing" so much as fixing a cock-up on my part during the initial coding of the skill where I forgot to pass on the relevant health checks to the coders.
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| i understand that its intended to be more effective against wounded opponents, |
Yep.
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| and it always was. |
Nope, it used to disregard health completely, and the omission only recently came to my attention. (I'm not exactly down there playing a mortal ranger these days, you know.)
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| rangers are the weakest warrior type class, |
Many would disagree with you there.
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| and depend on things like wounding shot. |
You might play rangers in a way that does, but rangers most certainly did not depend on wounding shot before I gave them that skill, and many of the rangers I've snooped since then certainly did not rely upon it at all (or else the health issue would've came to my attention a lot earlier).
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| its very easy to counter. hold recall;quaff recall. or use a shield. or protective shield. |
That's nice and all when you can actually see it coming, instead of being informed that you have a ranger in your PK by a wounding shot coming out of camo.
And yeah, you know, hobble also has easy counters -- just maintain superior weapon style and/or keep weapon ward up. But search the forum for the bitch threads on hobble, too.
The main issue here is that rangers have been designed to be a skirmish class, with lots of flee-disengage-reengaging, which is a different model from the straight-up lag of warriors and berserkers. Rangers didn't used to have lag at ALL (other than a very inconsistent throw), but now they have dirt kick flee lag, wounding shot flee lag, and other stuff as well. Without the health checks on wounding shot, rangers could effectively use wounding shot for a similar purpose as bash/bodyslam etc -- to keep people in combat. That's not what wounding shot was designed to be. It was designed to be a "finisher" to end chases, not to fully immobilize targets from the start -- standing there slugging it out is what warriors/berserkers are designed to do, not rangers. If rangers were designed to excel in that as well, we'd just take out camo, many of the bow/javelins skills, give them straight-up lag skills... wait a minute, now it's starting to sound like we're talking about warriors all over again.
Wounding shot without the health check is inconsistent with the design ethos of the ranger class. And why this inconsistency? Because it was obviously supposed to have had one all along. Done and done.
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| i dont see how being in perfect health and standing around doing nothing protects a person more than a guy that is very hurt and quite possibly doing all he can to protect his vital parts. |
And some wag will just come along and counter by responding that someone who's very hurt and running for the hills as fast as he can is probably not going to be guarding himself in the most disciplined way, and who's going to be right? It actually doesn't matter to me what you personally decide. Realistically, on a text game people will visualize things differently -- and what's most important to me is gameplay consistency and RP plausibility. Could people interpret the any particular descriptive phrase differently? Of course -- it's just text. Is the given interpretation a plausible one though? I happen to think so -- and being plausible is the important part, since the job of the semantic interpretation is to carry the gameplay along. (It would be awfully boring and unwieldly if we just called the skill "a bow skill to be used to end a chase" instead of "wounding shot", even though it would make the skill's usage dramatically more clear.)
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| at least make wounding shot be able to fire during combat now that this change has been made? |
See above. Wounding shot isn't bash. Having those nice skirmishing skills like leading shot and quick volley means giving up the immobilization skills.
People had the same complaints about paladins being fighters that couldn't lag, too. It's pretty simple: some classes will force you to learn to chase better than others. And rangers being forced to track well -- imagine that.
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| yes, they have camouflage and herb, which made up for lack of offensive abilities (such as hobble and overhead crush) and low health, but now their saving grace just got nerfed. |
Well, if warriors look soooo good, then play one instead of a ranger! I've always believed that you can prove things by playing it, such as my proving paladins were overpowered back in the day by playing a mort paladin with just a set of mithrils/woods still able to run around PKing all the evils with crap eq. Surely you can do the same and play a warrior to beat up on rangers everywhere and prove your point. Warriors pwnzors, rangers suxxors!
On the other hand, you might read some of the delete posts by level 50 warriors for a different perspective. Or read some logs -- for example, since you've mentioned rangers are being sorely disadvantaged due to lacking hobble, check out this Invokation log of how a particularly nifty ranger skill can be used to counter being hobbled. You know, I gave rangers all sorts of skills in addition to wounding shot for a reason, and it's not to see the same skill used over and over again.
It sounds to me like you'd prefer the straight-up warrior style but don't want to give up the nice ranger perks. But you know you can't have your cake and eat it too, right?
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| and in case you want to bring up the intention of the skill, the helpfile was changed after the fact. |
In case you want to bring up the intention of the skill: I designed the skill's specs, I wrote the helpfile, and I think that qualifies me as an expert in what my own intentions were, thank you very much. |
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Baer
 
Joined: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 618
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 7:47 am Post subject: |
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Pwnt!
Don't bring that mess to Burzuks house, oooh what!
(Yay booze) |
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Adebaldi
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 272
Location: Tallinn, Estonia
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| I have been recently killed twice by rangers. Different rangers different chars and they both did it by catching me offguard and lagging me to death with wounding shot. Yes, second time I did manage to recall away from the battle several times, but some of the times I was still in my hometown and as you know recalling out of battle lags, so he was there instantly. |
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gomer
Joined: 09 Jul 2004
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Its good that they changed wounding shot. I have a ranger and have owned several other by leading with it. Here is what would happen:
I would lead with wounding shot, catching them completely by surprise and unsanc'd so when they fled they lagged themself. I then walked in and murdered with them still unsanc'd and they would flee and lag themself again. I walked in again and murder with them still unsanc'd and now dead.
Warriors can't lead with hobble so why should rangers. Also if they never changed wounding shot then why would there be a need for lead shot... since it is its most potent(?) with your target at full health. And unless I am mistaken this game is meant to be played at level 50 so if you are a level 30 or 40 bitching that you dont have lead shot and now cant initiate(?) with wounding shot then rank. |
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rakham
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| fiiiiine. i understand. it just kinda sucks when something is taken away from you that you are used to having. it did make pk pretty easy. |
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pip
Joined: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 247
Location: You're in Trouble Now Room
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Uhh. I think the whole point of all the combat modules is to make PKing a little more intense and actually make you think a bit. I honestly have to say after playing two rangers (Nychlas and Oranyth) that Rangers are not gimped. A well played ranger is top nothced over a zerker/warrior because of pets and bow skills. And the fact that you aren't lagging yourself out with hobble/overhead gives you the ability to switch out weapons/shield to prevent and counter anything they throw at you. Also with the new addition of retreat, they are mighty nice. |
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DarkFire
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| hear hear Burzuk and pip, rangers are the best fighting class for people who like to flee/murder/repeat. I mean look at all the good books and some movies (can't think of any right now) where a ranger fires alot of arrows then runs to find a different place and starts again and when the target is wounded come in a finish them. thats how rangers are. wounding shot was to powerful when rangers first got it sure it was fun to own people who was unsanc but think what if you find you target asleep and unsanc with his health still down? |
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