Justices and knights

[ssgtortho]

Now seriously, when the Justice and Knights declared war on each other, why? If anything they should be banding together to take out the Legion, assassins, and to an extent, warlords. Why fight each other?

[Dobson]

Justice battles chaos, Knights cause chaos, from what I have seen half of Justice is evil, so you KNOW they don't care about alignment, it is only about the law. The knights break the law regularly battling legion and assasins. That is why.

[Enskel]

In a word, Deiminos.

Deiminos causes chaos outside of town. He goes after ranking groups a lot. At the least, knights Kalest, Linenthel and Daelric have had to fight their way up through the ranks despite his attacks. He goes after underequipped targets. When he runs into trouble outside of town he words back to the protection of the law. All Thera hates him.

[Flying Hampster of Doom]

I think Knights finally just got tired of the bullshit surrounding the protection that justices get no matter what kind of stunts they pull. Its about time justices joined the rest of the cabals as a group without superior protection, time to join the warfare justices. This time, you are going to lose.

[Green Elephant]

Yeah, Justice is going down this time. We can all see it. I don't know if they realized what a double edged sword removing protection can be. Basically, each justice may as well be tagged with a permanent WANTED sign as far as the knights are concerned. Also, it seems to me that JUSTICE has already lost the war, if not the battles. Abandoning order to defeat an enemy sounds like a direct abandonment of their guiding principles.

[Rezakhan]

It's not abandoning order to defeat an enemy, its choosing a lesser evil. If a cabal declares war on Justice, as the Knights did, then it is obvious they care nothing for order and will not respect it. Thus, removing their protection and battling them is a temporary evil that will ultimately result in them learning the value of the law.
Now, if only IT would hurry up and fix my computer, I could actually join in the war...

[Green Elephant]

Let me put it this way, if two sanc'd, hasted, fire giant warrior repeatedly broke into WARLORD cabal and stole their item, would the warlords suddenly start quaffing purple potions and asking mages to spell them up?

I didn't think so. JUSTICE's guiding principle is LAW ENFORCEMENT. They have just refused to enforce laws where certain individuals are concerned. In my opinion, that counts as a very serious loss to their side.

[Sebryn]

Not that I'm "backing" the Justices' cause, but think about it this way:

In society, everybody knows the difference between right and wrong. Laws exist to protect everyone, and for those that 'lose sight' of what the right thing to do is, they get "punished" (arrested, imprisoned, death penalty, etc.) depending on the severity of the crime.

If someone in everyday society got tired of police authority and decided to "go postal" on the local P.D., they'd be taken out... quickly. In AR, however, characters have multiple lives. Since that's the case, if someone (or in this case several someones) decides to attack the Justices repeatedly, they're considered constant threats and are deemed to have no respect or consideration for law, thus they lose protection from the law. Think about that... if you're willing to destroy those that uphold the law, why should you benefit from having them around?

It makes perfect sense in my opinion. Not very nice for those that've lost protection, but they've done it to themselves.

[Green Elephant]

Ok, before I start this, I'd like to say that I know comparisons to the real world aren't wholly accurate when describing AR. However, I've got a point to make and I think this will help.

Suppose a sect of society decided they would shoot at policemen whenever they saw them. Now, of course they would be dealt with harshly. Maybe the cops would even adopt a "shoot first, negotiate later" policy. However, under no circumstances would our government just say "alright, these people obviously don't respect our law, all you rednecks out there grab your shotguns, it's people season!"

The point is, it would have made more sense to simply allow the JUSTICEs to attack knights whenever they wanted to. Allowing the general populous to act in a lawless manner clearly undermines their stated goals.

I promise I'll stop beating this dead horse now.

[Sebryn]

So do you think that, given your example of the 'sect of copkillers,' if another individual or group of citizens (ex-cops, NRA junkies looking to kill something, whoever) got together and eliminated the "threatening, chaotic sect," they'd be given the same penalty and/or punishment as if someone randomly shot an innocent person?

Granted, this whole scenario is highly far-fetched, but I guarantee this:

In today's society, if something like the above occurred then the "good guy civilians" might get a stern handling by the authorities as long as the media were watching, but more than likely they'd be held in high regard as "heroes" behind the scenes. Remember the D.C. sniper(s)? If someone would've popped those two guys during their shooting-spree, they would've been given a damn medal by all of the families that lost loved ones along the way.

None of it's really relative to AR, like you said. Look at it this way if it makes it easier for you:

1) The Knights declared war on the Justices.
2) The Justices, seeing that they were now open targets for the Knights, took protection away from the Knights (i.e. - made them criminals in everyone's eyes, since attacking Justices is a crime).
3) Now that the Knights are considered common criminals for their repeated attacks on the Justices, anybody that wants to can help "apprehend" (in this case, murder) the criminals.

There's nothing ORDERING everyone within range to attack the Knights. Hell, if you've been playing ANY AR in the last couple days you'll see that just as many people are attacking Justices (if not MORE) as are attacking the Knights. The Knights aren't being hindered or "ganged up" on, I assure you.

Until the Knights stop logging on, I'm not gonna feel like it's "unfair" for them not to have any laws protecting them. They know full well what they're into, and most (if not all) of them can handle it just fine.

[Rezakhan]

First, Id like to thank both GreenElephant and Sebryn--its been awhile since Ive seen an argument on the forum with intelligent points and without senseless insults.
To respond to your Warlord comparison: If two fire giant warriors kept taking the Warlord item, no, the Warlords would not suddenly start using magic. However, they would attack those warriors by all means possible, meaning they wouldnt hesitate to fight them without leaving the area or fight them as a group.

[Quiet Wanderer]

I still think the Justice are creating chaos be doing this. They're going against the guidelines of their cabal in my opinion. Fight them outside of town, in the woods, on the rivers, but removing portection undermines the purpose of the Justice Cabal. In my opinion. Now maybe a stricter punishment of knights, and the ability to track them with guards (not that justices wouldn't do that without permission anyway). I never have liked the Justices, and this is another reason. Law enforcers and peacekeepers causing chaos by removing protection from the Knights. Just seems odd to me. Then again, I'm sure it was nessecary for some reason, and just attacking them isn't a reason to me. Repeat attackings happen from singular players, but no one has outlawed them. I'm just sorta kinda confused as to why they outlaw the Knights. Not bashing the Justice for this, but it definitely confuses me.

---Edit-----
Yes I know it's not all Knights, and only Jeradan is removing protection. Dousing that flame before it hits kindling.

[Sebryn]

Quiet Wanderer:

[Eldorian]

How does removing protection cause chaos? If Knights are going to be ignoring the laws anyway, meaning they'll be attacking in town anyway, why not make it open field for people to attack them as well?

There's no point to letting Knights stay in town and always have "first strike" advantage (since they would otherwise be protected in town) if it is certain that they will be using it, and against the upholders of law -- they did declare war on Justice, after all. How does removing their protection, which both nullifies the first strike thing, as well as discourage them from staying in town, promote chaos? If having Justices around is no longer sufficient dissuasion from causing chaos in town, then other measures will need to be set in place, right?

[Kalist19]

Everyone should take this oppertunity to try to scale down Justice's power. Anyone with a level 50 should be helping the Knights win this war. Your current character is temporary but if you are a major player in a war your name will go down in history and while individual players are forgotten, the results of wars last much longer.

[Dobson]

I am impressed, no name calling yett

This is how I see it from a simpler point of view. Say you are the police, it is illegal (permit or not) to conceal a weapon drawn or otherwise on your person while in a public area WITHOUT lawenforments DIRECT and DOCUMENTED permission. Any violater is given a warning, if the subject refuses and makes ANY hostile movements, the suspest is to be treated hostile and DEFENSIVE action may be taken including using ones STANDARD side arm/batton/tazer/mace.

I said that to say this, you are a cop, see a fool with a gun you KNOW is going to try and kill you, what are you going to do, wait until he shoots you to fight back?

[DropThat]

Have you guys read the description of knights? they are supposed to devote themselves to the path of right. Look at their ethos list. it says neutral and chaotic. meaning they can take on the justices if they think they are morally base and commiting acts of badness or whatever else..

I think a good role play of this might be some justices aid the cause of the knights in order to rid the evils from the justice cabal... it seems to me that knights police the cabals and the cabal justice polices the towns. So if the knights want to beat some evil justice ass, they should just do it w/o you guys bringing up all this crap.

In other words "know your role(s), and shut your mouth." read the cabal philosophies. Try to REALLY get to understand roleplaying and how these two cabals (and the others) are set up. if you think its bad RP, look through everything on these cabals you can, consider it and apply some logical thought as to whats going on in the situation, and if you still have a problem then complain.

and Dobson, knights arent supposed to cause chaos, they're supposed to right the wrongs of the world, which may seem chaotic to you, but may only be true a few times out of many.


Look, it seems you guys talk about RP but don't really know how to do it. Like a kid who thinks he knows what "it"(you know, sexual encounters, flirting, foreplay, the whole nine yards) is all about.


finally, I DONT EVEN KNOW WHY YOU'RE DISCUSSING THIS. if you guys want to argue about politics of in game stuff get IC in the game and discuss it. lots of people dont just sit and chat about in world events or other stuff like the cabals because all they wanna do is level until their character dies. if you want to roleplay better, try going to bars, doing real people activites such as gossiping and trading stories. don't you guys get bored of creating a character, farming potions, and sitting back watching your macros level your character.

Basically most people just change their wording, which is like thy or doth or some other crap. changing your words isnt roleplaying.


look at deim. that one guy even said he attacks groups outside of town. He's a freakin evil maniac. I hate to use this analogy, I really do, because I think these types have no merit here but think of policemen dealing drugs and killing people who find out. In fact I think I've seen a show about this before. tv or movie I dont know, what I do know is some "civilian"(bullshit term used by the govt WE SHOULD be controlling, instead of them controlling us,(its in the constitution f$#*ers)) started handing out ass whoopins and sprays of bullets to the bad cops and after the govt investigation, was declared a hero. kind of like that idiot's CD sniper anal, but the bad guys are cops.

BTW I do think deiminos is one of the best RPed chars. as far as everyone else goes, wheres the complex social interplay. I don't see people talking a lot, using stone giants as pawns( because they're kinda dim and have a neutral stance, a bit like a mercenary) to kill people who they have some kind of (IC/RP) beef with, or ninjas being hired by other players to assn. people or protect them. maybe its just because of the low player base... vote and tell people to change their ISPs because these pricks ban all the widely used ones...

And dont say ( blah blah this is what cabals are for ). cabals aren't necessary to RP.

the reason I go on about this ISP ban is that it really pisses me off( I want to have a giant world with all sorts of people and spectacular RPing of societies in game and interaction between races/classes/alignments/ethos/cabals). This mud has the opportunity to grow to be the biggest player base mud. there's a fairly simple way to deal with cheaters. ban their IP permanently unless they do something or give you some very good reason to let them back in. face it cheaters are always going to exist. by banning AOL and more, you're merely cutting down on the player base. think of it this way. how many cheaters and supposed "beligerent" players have you gotten so far (consistently), when the player base has been about 40-50. about one tenth? one twelvth? if you let more players in the percentage might increase by one or two percent, so you will have more cheaters, but think about percentage not numbers. thats what counts. and when you get those cheaters and you have such a large player base, they might apologize because their friends brag about playing such a badass mud, and they want in on it.

and if you keep deleting the cheaters' characters they'll give up easily, or adopt non cheater play style. I think that'd be the best way to handle it. its harsher in some ways but a lot more lenient than a full on ban. just tell them what rule they broke, say theyre welcome to make a new character and follow the rules, and delete their char so they can reuse the name if they choose. I think if you preempt their rant with this tactic after theyve been busted ( or just gag/ freeze them ), they will either leave if they dont care, or play by the rules after reading all of them ( those rules rooms sound so condescending and rude. it will only make those who broke the rules more defensive. think about how many people you put in there and how many make it out to play the game again. if the answer is a ratio of infinity to zero, maybe its the wrong way to handle it.

dont say that if they didnt abide by the rules the first time, they wont again. thats a flimsy argument and you know it. it cant be disproven and therefore it should make it true right? wrong. and also dont say "motd motd" either. the first time I tried mudding I didnt know about scrolling back, and the motd goes by so fast you cant read it. I was just trying to keep from being overwhelmed by quick movement of text and other crap. I wasnt even considering they'd have special guidelines for me to follow other than the no brainer stuff like no spam, no hate crime stuff...

[Davairus]

[marsd]

finally, I DONT EVEN KNOW WHY YOU'RE DISCUSSING THIS.

lol, why are you discussing it then? And why do you put finally when your post ends like.. 3 paragraphs later?

[Lorne]

I will make like Matrix and reply to this post,

Stfu.

Eat a dick.