New Set Idea

[Ergorion]

I think Dav mentioned something about possibly adding more sets to the game not too long ago, and I remember there was an exotic weapon that increased xp gain I think by a small percentage. I was thinking that it would be nice to have a new set, and at the same time how it sucks to train skills, especially for races that are dumb as rocks. So I thought, perhaps implementing a set that increases not xp, but learning by a small percentage. It doesn't have to be something huge like 100% increase in learning speed or even 25%, but I think a set like that would be interesting and useful to have.

I don't have an idea as to what items would go into a set like that, but there would probably have to be some rare components so that you don't have every Tom, Dick, and Joe walking around in the set. I also think there should be an exotic weapon component so that you are stuck in one combat style and weapon type for as long as you want to use the set as well as not being able to train other weapons at an increased rate. One thing I just thought was having some of the items disappear with a quit, rot_quit so to speak, so that when you log back on you have to regain some of the items again and can't just go back to killing butlers in the mansion forever.

As for the items, I think it would stand to reason that the items should primarily be items that typically boost wis and int. In addition, I think they shouldn't add any hit/dam so that while you're wearing the set you're somewhat vulnerable to hostile attacks, for a couple rounds at least.

I know Dav doesn't like giving hand-outs, but I think something like this wouldn't disrupt the balance if the bonus from the set towards learning was something like a 5% increase. It might be enough to draw some people towards it, or maybe it won't get used. I just figured I would toss this idea out there and see what the rest of you all thought about it.

[Xerties]

That's probably too buff I think

Though I do think that Goods should have some comparable version of the treant thews/malicious beast sets.

[Faelon]

Balance the set out by making it really heavy. Something, that if you have it in your sack, takes away the chance you can pick up anything else of worth.

[Davairus]

Actually I have been looking at the training rates lately and I did feel there was a rather deplorable issue with the scope of penalties getting applied to people for being higher level than the mobs. It doesn't make sense to do that to skills like blackjack... because how is a level 50 supposed to train them, go around blackjacking rangers? Youd be much better off training that at 20 in those circumstances... where you can actually kill the mobs you have 10 levels on pretty easily.

What I did about that was make lower-level-mobs level penalty apply only on improving defence skills. If I can think of other skills where a level penalty is needed it'll be easily added in. Maybe a lighter penalty for non-defences skills but I don't really see a need for more penalties than we've already got. At the very least a 50 deserves the same training rate as a level 20 gets if he goes around blackjacking in elemental canyon. Having bigger rate through being higher level is reasonable too, since he is in a tougher pk range. Training should be a risk-reward tradeoff. I'm not sure if I'm done mucking with it yet. Clearly level difference becomes more significant as you advance so current formulas didnt work.

Altough, I would like you to be aware that the intention is to make *defenses* pretty much impossible to learn through spamming (whether at level 15, or 50) with tons of lowbie mobs allowing defences to max out so that there is a point to offering to tank for levelling and to help ensure that 50's may not all have 100% defences, at least not without doing their share of the difficult tanking. I don't think that is the case at the moment with monster pot assistance although I'm still contemplating the appropriate way to nerf it. If monster pot healing doesnt change somehow then likely you will just see it become harder to defend when you have multi attackers so that you just get whacked around by big piles of mobs.

There is no need for a "training set".

[Stephen2_Aust]

FYI, Davairus, although I'm sure you're aware:

I was able to train defenses to very high %s at level 40, in Inn of the Last Home @ Solace, using sanc and healing.

Also, I absolutely love item sets and think they're not only useful but a heap of fun to find and wear. Would love more of them out there, but I have no imagination, so can't offer many useful suggestions.

[Davairus]

Thats precisely what I was talking about. Those kinda things are pit spots to train defs. I am contemplating what to do about it... because you know if I fix things on a case-by-case basis then we are just going to move to the next spot, or an unwitting builder will put something in just like it. And taking the time to train defs by tanking wont make a difference to anything.


By the way the posted set idea sounds like the guild-issue set that we have already.

[Vertas]

Not sure I'm following you correctly dav, but are you implying that the more mobs you're tanking the more difficult it will be to defend? This'll make winter trips harder, and pking with a necro/ranger/illusionist easier. Kind of a double edged sword.

[kieros]

i never could understand why training was nerfed with the hobgoblins, i loved mastering dual parry with my fire giant warriors then being able to tank rangers at lvl 23 without sanc before monster pots were invented. I doubt most people train defenses anymore because of combat styles and weapon advantages and even for ranking monster pots. I am a hard core trainer and I don't even train defences unless asked to by a cabal member. It has really lost its luster, especially when most of ur opponents have hobble and ur screwed either way by making the wrong guess not because your dodge is 96%. Training ur skills seems to be more an ego thing now, don't really see the point of making it even harder when u never really see anyone training. If anything make training areas specific for people, I like using grimforge because I get ore for forging and you can master defenses there pretty easily at rank 40 and up. And as far as sets go, it would be great to have some more nothing more satisifying to me when my eq matches in some way.

[wudst]

Kieros, Stephen2 said 3 posts before you that he was training his defs... How is it an argument to say that no one is doing it anymore when you have someone saying that they are doing exactly what you said they arent doing right above you?

Dav, I trained blackjack recently... And I gotta tell you man... It mastered way too fuckin quick. Probably 4 hours of training in elemental at... 36-43. 100%

[Davairus]

How recently?

[wudst]

Mastered this weekend. Sunday I think.

Edit: I started training a week and a half ago and whenever I had a break I would train it... Sunday it went from 90 or so to 100 within an hour and a half.

[Thorgoth]

i personally believe, and no one will probably agree, but...

frequently used pimp sets like treant thews (my main and only beef) needs to have some kind of downside. i was thinking that since treants are weak to fire why not have the person affected by treant thews be affected too? maybe make it keeper only too. You see lvl 50's (max stats) hitting dismembers through sanc with high avg rare weapons and set items over random/unique/rare. Then with being neutral they deal max damage with no protection to lessen the damage. the fact is, it takes a long fucking time to hit that kind of damage going straight rare/unique set. i made a neutral and tried it out and it was "You have been KILLED!!! shrug - wake - off for a quick k lord k guardian ok i'm suited time to pwn yer face fucksta

[Davairus]

A new def training nerf is live. But the other skills should be easier to train, since they used to be penalized by the old def training nerf, which was ineffective at actually nerfing def training. I am concerned it will be feeling too easy to master skills but I think thats going to be the result of getting used to being super gimpy. If you look at Lavosin's recent graveyard skill list (someone who was commented on as having done a lot of training) you will see its been too difficult.

The treant thews set has always bothered me a bit, but it does have a negative drawback in that you got hampered with -8 dex on all the best slots, so you have to wear items with crap stats to get your dex up. Also if somebody pries a piece, your bonus is done away with, and you might not notice that.

[Thorgoth]

dual onyx randoms can easily take care of that. so turbo boost the damage and add +4 dam rings to a 60 hp 5/5 hit/dam/con/str...no offense but i'd choose that over dealing with the frown of losing my pimp suit instead of adventuring to find new eq.

note to self - always play a thief if you don't want to deal with treant thews..check

[Davairus]

Onyx randoms arent great because there's a -dam penalty.. that's not the most you can get out of that slot. 2 stat = 1 dam

[Erlwith]

The dex, like dav said, is a major drawback for thews. If you have to wear any sort of saves you either generally get fucked with dex penalty or have to kill the set. Don't forget you're just catching up in dex using all your other slots, so you're still severely gimped with hitroll. A suit of rares or gambled items are still superior to thews.

[RebornShadows]

ok so im alittle confused. How will training work now? I mean I trained the hell out of Lavosin golems in grimforge, the people in the inn at solace, rangers, nymphs, so all of that is gone now? Can you clear it up Dav?

[Davairus]

For defences, you should ideally be fighting same or similar level mobs, because a level penalty is applied to counter the effect of defences getting maxed out by massive level advantages. It doesn't go to zero, but it gets difficult. This was already in affect before. Also, don't bother fighting multiple mobs at once. This will reduced in lower learning rate. Its the new addition and basically it should tell you this - you can sit in low levels in theory if you want to get them done early, but we already know that takes a long time and most people don't find that particularly worth it .... if you thought you could just power-cheese them on solace forget it, its no faster than fighting with just one mob of that same level.

Rationalize that as being too occupied to learn as well or whatever you like, personally I just view it as a gameplay fix to make defences worth taking the time to do since generally people wont. I already did a similar fix for haggle which makes me wonder why I never considered this one before.

Repercussions I'm expecting: Fire giants with mastered bash are probably going to have to work hard to ensure they can actually outdamage you while tanking your po ass since they have naturally difficult time at learning their defensive skills. This is an overplayed race for warriors so this is good. But I'd expect half-elf to become a much more popular warrior over the course of several more months, since mastering defences is generally viewed as an important move (but this will change as casuals stop doing it). Those guys can go knights/keepers/justice which may be bad for the games liveliness (Legion makes things the most fun!) but people will still roll evils to have freedom for pk'ing. It'll take time for all the old warriors to get deleted out and for the new ones to realise h-elf is their quickest lowbie training too though. We might require a nerf to h-elf warrior favoreds and legacy.. I'll look into that within a couple weeks.

But basically do some tanking like usual and you'll be fine like usual. Dont expect to hit 50 with everything at 90, but you might be stuck at 98 or 99 on stuff

For other skills, additional level penalties imposed on learning rate because of the obvious need for defence training anti-cheese has been taken *off*. Even after the replies here, its still my opinion that a level 21 thief and a level 50 thief blackjacking tiny elementals to train are basically entitled to the same deals. Its not like its any harder for the 21. You are discouraged from levelling if such a penalties was applied to all skill

[RebornShadows]

ok just so i understand it.

Say I have a warrior at lvl 40 running through grimforge wont raise my defences as much as before because A they are lower ranked and B there are normally 2 or 3 in the room at the same time?

I agree with the power cheese on solace I mastered riptose in about 30 min.

As with the other skills the dont suffer from the lvl thing?

[Davairus]

I don't want to break the whole thing down for obvious reasons. I will clear up the level issue though so there is no misunderstandings.

* skills go up faster as you level up
* there is an additional bonus after level 36 and another for pinnacle, so pinnacle is the best place to train
* there is a level-of-target penalty and multiple mobs penalty for *defences*