running ideas thread for murder counters

[Arishel]

Not to mention a rescue from a pet, then you're screwed. As we already know you can't initiate unless you lag yourself evern further with an initiating skill. So you flee, after opponent's pet rescues, you are then lagged, enemy walks in and rinse and repeat. I don't see the logic behind a flee lag. Don't take me offensively, but I don't agree with it.

[Kalist19]

Instead of looking at punishing a person for initiating with murder why don't you just take some of the bite out of it? Currently skills like 2nd, 3rd attack, dual wield, etc are able to proc on murder initiation. What if you switched it so that 2nd,3rd,4th attack don't proc on initiation?

Initiate with sword + shield or a two hander = 1 attack
Initiate dual wielding = 1 attack from each weapon

This gives them a couple extra swings at you (that can still be blocked/dodged/etc as normal) but doesn't give them the ability to spam murder/flee for 4-5 attacks each time.

[crazyhorse]

My suggestion: Make murder a longer lag time.

I dont mind seeing invokers do the flee hellstream thing, because well... They have shitty hp and its 1.5 rounds of lag for the spell. You hit them with a murder first, they were spamming hellstream, you hit your murder, they hit hellstream, and you can chase immediately when they flee. Same process all over again.

I think making the flee murder thing go away would make warriors a bit gimp though. So I say you make murder time ... 1.25 or 1.5 and then make sideswipe and barrage things you can enter combat with.

It would really kill the flee murder thing with invokers, making that fight a little more even, but the sideswipe and barrage (while being a bit risky) would make up for the not wanting to murder due to its lag at everyone else.

I dont really think that this would make warriors any better against any class, and it would tone down them vs invokers. The more I think about it, the more I like it.

I would say murder time to 1.5

[bassball]

Why don't we just leave it cause it isn't broken?

[crazyhorse]

Bassball, I avoided tearing you to pieces, but you leave me no choice.

The argument that its "supposed to be that way" is a really really really really really really really bad one. Do you know whyyyyy?

Cuz they guy, whos only focus on AR is to make things balanced, says that it ISNT "the way its supposed to be". At least not any more.

Im not even going to take the time to quote dav, but earlier in this thread he called what you are doing now. Protecting your class because you play it.

You said yourself that you dont have any real experience with mages. Huh. I wonder why you dont think its broken?

Please stop being stupidly dedicated to something. If you dont think its broken, tell us why. Defend your ignorant argument, or shut the fuck up.

[bassball]

Crazyhorse. You've been running around the forums bashing everyone for no reason since Nyd. Quit being a dick about stuff and get over yourself. You're not that right either.

Maybe I'm a little biased because I play warriors. But I like to try and have a bit of realism in AR. Yeah I know nearly nothing about it is real but...
It doesn't make sense to slow down and get lagged when you murder someone... it doesn't make sense for it not to be a free round. It doesn't make sense for you not to get all your attacks in. And fleeing is a part of fighting like it's always been. If Dav think's its busted he'll fix it no matter what any of us dumb tards say. Because yeah Crazyhorse, you're just as big of an idiot, probably bigger, then the rest of us. So Dav is just going to do his thing and fix anything that's busted and leave everything else alone. So I'm gonna let him do it.

I know for a fact that warriors aren't cheese. I still know it's very difficult to kill people with a warrior. Flee/murder DOESN'T work like you seem to think it does crazyhorse. Have you played a warrior as recently and with as much depth as I have? Maybe I don't know how it is for mages, but maybe you don't know how it is for warriors. Mages getting hellstream and chain lightning is enough to offset murder flee. Cause it does. Everytime I fight invokers I either don't manage to kill them, or when I do I have very little hp left. and I AM A DWARF WARRIOR. So if you take away flee murder I can't win. Maybe it's because I suck at pk. But I like to think I'm decent enough at it that I ought to atleast have a shot at killing a mage.

So if Dav thinks it's broken. Please, fix it Dav, for the sake of balance and for the sake of crazyhorse, if it's not. Leave it alone, right?

So please, crazyhorse, please stop being stupidly dedicated to being an asshole, or shut the fuck up.

[crazyhorse]

Did you actually say anything?

"Because it doesnt make sense" isnt defending an argument. Thats like saying "because I said so". Magic doesnt make sense, you fucking dumb twat.

Your gonna "let" dav change it if he thinks it should happen? Wtf?

As for your only actual argument. Maybe its the fact that you refuse to equip? You know... its only what warriors are based on. Their hit and dam. Instead of being a bitch and hiding from keepers.

If you have an ubered dwarf warrior vs an ubered invoker... Dwarf warrior wins with flee murder.

Duh.

Go stop being a little bitch and get some real eq. Your in the best position to do it. And maybe then you will experience the awe of flee/murder.
You hindering yourself isnt a valid argument.

[_Clifton_]

well.. i'll go ahead and point out what's obvious to me.

[Master]

Have you actually tried listening to yourself? You said that you avoided tearing into Bassball, but you dug in with apparent relish when the opinion that he voiced clashed with your own. Just because it's your opinion doesn't make it the only right one.

I believe that you deliberately misinterpreted Bassball's statement that he'd just "let" Davairus fix whatever. The implication being that Davairus will fix whatever he thinks needs fixing, regardless of any high-pitched mewling that emanates from the playerbase. Bass said that, in effect, the griping wouldn't be his.

I'm trying to be as polite as possible given what I'm trying to say, but your megalomania doesn't have any place where people are simply trying to voice their opinions.

[crazyhorse]

Jesus Christ.

Piece by piece.

"when the opinion that he voiced clashed with your own. Just because it's your opinion doesn't make it the only right one."

So me arguing my side is... wrong?

Me dubbing, and showing very well, as to why his opinions are just a stream of useless dribbling bullshit is... Inaccurate?

Im pretty confused by your overall post Master. Just because Bass decided to use faulty logic (time and time again), idiocy, and bland blanketing statements to defend his opinion... That doesnt make him right. That makes him probably wrong, and very easily shown to be wrong. So you defending him... or whatever it is you are trying to do... is silly.

If I am a megalomaniac, then you are as well. Because we both think we are right, and we have both attacked another person in order to defend our argument. Im just a bit more mean than you are.

If he wants to voice an opinion that doesnt get flamed, he is welcome to post a coherent, logical, non-idiotic opinion that doesnt include the phrase (or any that imply the same concept) "because I say so". Because I will flame the fuck out of him, or anyone, that does that. Because it is a waste of my time, his time, your time, and the space in the chasm of the internet.

[Arishel]

It's nice that rangers have snap shot, and warriors/(paladins?)have counter.
If you are thinking about using javelins to somehow stop the flee murder tactic from becoming today's laundry, would it be hard to implement quick volley into a counter form? I know it's used sometimes in murdering someone, but remove that aspect of it and let it just be for counter-base and volleying while someone is fleeing.

As for berserkers maybe they could rake the opponents weapon when they flee/murder.

Could these skills be implemented in this case, but not draw out the damage from a mage's weapon ward? If the total damage done from dual wield opponent is too much for mages then perhaps nullify enhanced damage when a warrior flee/murders a mage, but during regular rounds of combat it would come back?

[Olyn]

Lay off of the personal attacks.

[Master]

[Ceridwel]

Paladins don't get counter.

I play mostly paladins these days so this topic certainly is of interest to me. My understanding is that the only way for a paladin to effectively skirmish is with the murder command. Am I missin something? Using 'k' doesn't work since it tells you 'you have to MURDER'. I guess I could re-engage by leading with Wrath, but that's not always a good thing.

[Resatimm]

If you are vested in the class, then do not defend it unless you have a CONSTRUCTIVE and REASONED argument. You just look bad.

For example:

When Necros were on the verge (and then lost) lagging pets: I had to keep my mouth shut. Why? I excelled with necros and I was biased and wanted to keep it l33t. I had to take the shot of tequila and admit deep down inside that lagging charmies were unbalanced. Opening my mouth without some giant or grandiose revelation would have just made me look more of an ass than usual.

If people dont KNOW you are vested, then go right ahead, but dont tell them you are biased and then expect them to listen to your argument (or lack of one).

At the end of the day, balance is a good thing. This thread is here for feedback and ideas about fixing this balance properly. This isnt change for the sake of change. It is change for the better if and when it happens.

Dont shit on the boat.

[Davairus]

^Not what I would call interesting discussion..

[Thorgoth]

After a nice weekend vacation I came back to this and figured I'd give it my fresh mind, so here goes. Oh, and I didn't read everyones post because it just turned into baby talk and that shit is uninteresting, so if any ideas I throw out are repeats, don't think I'm trying to steal your thunder.

I noticed that mages are the prime targets for murders, when I fight a mage with a warrior, the only thing you can do is flee murder to keep up with the damage from high level spells > rend/hellstream/heal plus with weapon ward you can't do ANY of your warrior skills, not even volley because of protective shield. so if you think about it, warriors rely on this to take down a good mage or healer (who are IMPOSSIBLE to kill). so with that said, maybe we could add an initial damage output produced by weapon ward that "counters" a murder attack, and if a mage is under the spell your murder lag can maybe be 2 rounds or something. Also, for the perk of a warrior being able to fight back, the strength(main stat for warrior) and wisdom-clerics, intelligence-mages can help produce a small chance of breaking the weapon ward, thus throwing open the opportunity to barrage/shielddisarm or whatever your heart desires. Also, to help clean up the hobble trash on mages we could make the chance vs. mage of hobble can be reduced instead of it being a sure shot of weapon ward break/hobble and proceed to lag murder pwn.

So my idea would look something like this:

murder mage
Mage's unholy ward MUTILATES you!
your slash grazes Mage
(of course there would be more attacks from warrior)

The heat of battle surges through your blood and you destroy the Mage's weapon ward!

As for breaking the murder against other classes, I only think that there should be something changed with warrior vs. berserker since rangers have snap shot and warriors have counter, but I do notice that I very RARELY counter a pk murder. but anyways, say you are fighting a guy and you notice you are inferior, you flee/swap and re-initiate - at this point either two things could happen

1) you become lagged for 2 rounds because you become penalized for trying to flee/murder instead of the new option of being forced to run a couple of rooms to give your opponent a chance to switch/quaff purple or whatever and counter, cause as someone said it's a surprise attacks and newbies aren't really as secure in pk so they need a moment to think/catch up

2) if your opponent is in combat advantage, the warrior who initiates would be inferior, so therefor he could suffer a sideswipe/barrage/overhead initiate from trying to steal a murder, and to prevent from getting smoked, the counter would only initiate with aggressive adrenaline.

of course we could have to take up something for rogues, since they are the real meat shields and need something to protect themselves from already difficult warriors

[bassball]

Yeah. My post was dumb and didn't make sense. I apologize for my lack of any valid argument. I feel as if I'm not the only one this has ever happened to.

I would like to say that pricks who flame just to flame are something that is a huge deterrent for new players and I wish they'd stop the personal attacks. Which has actually been asked of them by imms...

So I'm going to forget my previous posts and call them invalid, thanks for pointing that out to me everyone. Hopefully my upcoming post, and posts, won't be so bad.

[Thorgoth]

no the point is to add a different dynamic to the class and to prevent the mind numbing an cheesey combo of flee/murder. i vote yes for this change.

[bassball]