The swing of power

[Davairus]

I am looking for more input on things that help identify a power swing (currently its members, member ratings, pks, deaths) and also looking for a *discussion* on whether being the "dominating" cabal should affect cabal skills, and if so, how it should, like perhaps granting a buff to that cabal's exp gains or adding damage, etc. Make sure you self-filter before you post, as I don't wish to read through crap.

[Mandor]

cabals should come with an automatic skill or power that works like a racial legacy proc'ing based on the level difference between you and the enemy, being nullified when you hit 50 (or if you're equal or higher rank than the person you're fighting). A passive bonus in this sense would A: be in line with the idea of getting power for swearing to a cabal B: provide some support when a cabal is dead and rank 40's have to deal with a gangbang invasion on multiple occasions.

However, being dominant also needs to be rewarded, not with a next level in cabal skills, but maybe with something that only comes into effect to help the cabal in some more tame way, like if Knights dominate they have scouts in highly travelled areas that report if an enemy cabal member is spotted in the area. this would contrast with the extra cabal skill that works against higher ranks but not against equal or lesser ranks.

More fights, bloodier fights, more bodies, and not necessarily the underdogs'.

[Esivole]

I don't believe that adding an exp or damage buff is the proper reward for a cabal that already holds the power.

I expect this to get shot down, but how about adding a *small* buff to the cabal guardian or altar guardian or both?

[Vhrael]

I think the question here is - are you wanting to REWARD the cabal who's dominating (thus PENALIZING the low-performing cabals), or are you wanting to keep the balance shifting more frequently?

What I mean by that is there are two schools of thought on this subject...

If someone's at 50, has the best set of equipment around, and they're on a killing spree, everyone says they're unstoppable with the exception of gangbanging, are you more apt to say that they need *MORE* bonuses because they're doing it better than everyone else, or do you believe that since you/someone else can't kill them that there needs to be an equalizer to bring them down a peg?

Same thing with a cabal. If they're getting their job done better (collecting contracts, apprehending wanted, killing "uncompliant"/at war, cleansing anathema, whatever) than everyone else, do you pat them on the back for getting it done, or do you think there comes a point when they'll just continue to steamroll everybody unless someone steps in to help take them down a notch?

Personally I think you can't slap someone on the wrist for doing what they're supposed to do. If it's ruled that it's "unbalanced" in gameplay terms, that's one thing, but if Cabal A is just full of better players and they're doing their thing better than Cabal B, it's up to Cabal B to either recruit better, get better at their game, or get more organized - whatever it takes within cabal conduct guidelines to get a leg up.

(The reason I even brought that up is that at first I started thinking about giving a reward/incentive to the lower performing cabals, instead of the highest-performing one, as a means to equalize the playing field. One of the complaints that's always out there when either Knights or Legion get rolling is that the other cabal has a meat-grinder for new members trying to power-rank from 40 to 50, and if you've got all the support and cabal member activity for your side, it's "impossible" for the other side to equalize, so people don't apply, don't log in, etc. So I was thinking "well if one cabal's dominant, what about an exp bonus for the OTHER cabals so their new members don't get chewed up and nerdrage before they have a chance to make an impact?" But that's not fair to the cabal that already took the initiative and time to build their own dominance up from the ground, so I think if anything there should be a minor/moderate bonus of some kind for the dominant cabal, and a "suck it up and get better" comment for the non-dominant cabals.)

TLDR: Exp bonus for dominant cabal, to help lowbie members support those already keeping it dominant. No damage/other bonus.

[Kalist19]

Cabal power depends on three things:
Number of people in cabal
Skill of people in cabal
Activity of people in cabal

Any cabal that severely lacks one of those is going to be sucking pond water. You could have the 5 best players in the game all in the same cabal but if they only log in 1 hour a week each, and at different times, they will never make any progress. If you have a ton of horrible noobs that play all the time, they will get steamrolled by vets (initially, but if they play long enough they will eventually improve).

Power shifts usually occur due to a cabal having a solid foundation of good, active players (~4 decent level 50's) then mass inducting people who want to jump on the bandwagon. They drag their new recruits up, while they pwn the recruits of the inferior cabals. Eventually the knight circle jerk disgusts the good players (who really wants to be fapping anyway) and they roll up legions. The power shifts toward legion, more people jump on the bandwagon, rinse and repeat.

Looks like all the effort put in to keepers is an attempt to minimize the frequency of this power shift (i.e. keepers will prevent knights from bottom feeding on low ranked legions) but it's still going to be tough for the lower ranked cabal to gain a foothold (unless they have good players).

What I'd do to help balance things out is to allow keepers to group with legion, and if I were in a weak cabal I would go to the keepers for help for ranking/fighting groups/etc. If you are in a weak cabal and need help, get some fucking help.

[crazyhorse]

Why not give both cabals a bonus?


Powerful cabal gets.... I like the next level up cabal powers, but that is stout as hell. Something with some added fair. As sebryn said, you shouldnt penalize a cabal that is doing well, because what is the point of doing well.

Though with keepers, maybe the cabal power thing wouldnt be over powered, since you are going to have keepers up your ass constantly.

The weak cabal, I dont like giving exp bonus' because that doesnt suggest that the 50'd players should come around. So maybe an additional guild reward (so farming gold, training, and ranking all get a nice bonus) for time played. Maybe call it cabal reward, and is based on how many hours the cabal puts in as a whole, or just single players.

If this would happen, I would think a "tie" for cabal beefing should happen. Like if all in all, shit is CLOSE to even, neither side should get the bonus. things that could be included would be how often cabal items get taken (and that "bonus" doesnt just disappear when the cabal item gets taken back. But instead continues to count cabal items taken until THEIR cabal item gets taken. Which would also insist on more cabal item warfare, which I think has declined seriously since the "at war with keepers" thing happened. Well... Until yesterday. Lawl.

[kieros]

Hmm having 50's in all cabals except Justices allowed me to see that access to defenders would be a nice leg up for lowbies, especially if you are the one dominating and you aren't lvl 50. Or possibly a discount on gambled items. Being in a cabal gold is a must and if you don't have the time due to cabal responsibilities to farm it that would be a nice plus. One thing that I do miss is the ability to call that healer or maybe the dominant cabal can get the shadow form thing that legion used to have as a cabal skill.

[bassball]

I just want to comment on the cabal guards. When you have to retrieve, and you are outnumbered 2 to 1 or worse, and the second you walk into the cabal guard to get your crap, you get cursed and dispelled. HowTF are you supposed to not die? You get dispelled then eat a dirt kick, then eat numerous ***DEVASTATES*** and you're dead...

Also, the whole cabal item jacking is obviously a part of cabal warfare and everything. But when people can just come and lift the Justice item, but Justice isn't allowed to steal items back. Just seems really not cool...

As for the rewards... Like Vhrael said, you defininitely can't reward the sucky cabals. Cause that's lame. The dominant cabal deserves a reward maybe, but is giving them one really going to help? I don't understand Dav. You make this Keeper shiz fest and make them at war the dominant cabal trying to minimize the power swings, and now you want to reward the dominant one so they stay in power longer... I don't know.

[Faelon]

Two words for you bassball..

Special. Guard.

I am aware you can't use it when you don't have your cabal item, but no one else gets an even level hitting machine, that auto loots on death, to do their duties. I think its one of those things you just have to suck it up and deal with.

[Hondorian]

Well, I've found that Justice is easily circumvented. A quick invasion when they first log in and you can do some damage fairly quickly. The guard is powerful, yes. But, it is very limited in it's uses. Perhaps, it's because I've been playing casters that I seem to be getting the short straw in many instances. Which is fine, for the most part. Then again, I'm probably not utilizing the guard effectively.

There have been instances where the new process itself has been a little baffling. I recall logging on at one point and seeing that Knights had the swing. I hadn't done anything for about 20 mins, checked again and it was then Justice that had it. Seeing how I was the only member on I was confused as to how it would swing my way. I hadn't killed anyone and my hours were far less than those of the Knights. I have no doubt there was something I was privy to.

It seems like the swing is really close between Knights and Justice. Even though Knights have a massive amount of hours at the moment. And they have been rockin' Justice lately. Which makes me wonder how Justice can even be up right now.

As far as suggestions, I have little to say about it. Sorry. I'm not one for asking for anything more than I have. Pretty much everything I've said has no really input to this topic. I've just wasted your time. Still, I'll be paying close attention to see how this unfolds.

[crazyhorse]

Hondo, if you are speaking from your invoker Justices perspective... The MOTD was fixed since then, so that point doesnt matter any more.

Bass, you really really dont know how to recognize when you got it good.

[bassball]

I was just pointing out that it feels kinda lame sometimes to log on and have the item gone, and you can't ever eff anyone else over like that. I wasn't complaining to get a change.

And the first part of my post isn't only about Justice. It's about everyone. The cabal guards are kinda pwnzor when you're outnumbered. Cause you try and kill it, get dispelled, then all anyone has to do is walk in and dirt kick and you're eating cap damage, so you're effed. Or you can flee, and then you're just as effed. Lol. I mean, the guard has to be tough maybe for when a 40 is defending against 50 or whatever. But when someone is trying to retrieve it's really hard to pull off.

[Kalist19]

Nobody whining about how 'strong cabal guardians are' will ever get any sympathy from me. Back when you were just a whipper snapper we used to have to retrieve our cabal item while outnumbered...as warlords....with no stance....

Yeah it's hard to get your item back but that's just one of the downsides of being in a cabal (i.e. CABAL DUTIES). Just part of the "with great power comes great responsibility..." thing. 1v1 retrieval shouldn't be hard. You could always invade, flee, kill the person, loot some stuff, then get the item back. Item retrieval is like cabal defense, you don't have to die every time you attempt it, but if you fail you damn well better be limping away.

[Amdorin]

Kalist's idea about Keepers being able to group with all cabals was something that was attempted to get going a while back, but didn't stick. I still think it has it's merits.

An idea:

If there are any kinds of balance restoring buffs/debuffs put in for the cabals, it kind of softens Keeper's purpose if not tied to them. However, I would agree with something like a monetary boosts in kills for 50's in the dominating cabal. Keepers would be excluded from such boosts as when they are "dominating" because things are actually "balanced" thus they would never qualify for whatever would be put in place.

Though there is a dominating cabal and the rest are under, is there a "least influential" (last place) cabal rating? Perhaps give this group the exp boost if they are under the appropriate thresholds, and make it a passive effect of Keeper's item being in proper place (this would inspire dominating cabals [mainly knight or legion] to seize the item with hopes of maintaining dominance). I would attribute the monetary boost for kills (haven't decided on whether the kills are caballed or not, probably caballed) + (in addition to the effects already in place for item seizure) to being an active effect of Keeper item within other halls.

That way, all standard effects still apply, and the dominating cabal still has to work to get their incentive, though it doesn't punish the weak cabal being preyed on directly. Justices have their Seringale to want people and take their items and on-hand gold outright. Keepers don't really need any outside items, though they do need gold. This mainly gets Knights and Legion revved up for dominance. (When Knights are dominating, with Legion in last place, they'll have a problem with Keeper for their item assisting evil [nullifies the neut vs good issues]. When Legion are up front, they'll take the item for powermonger sake)

Very crude idea, but it's something. People complain there's nothing to gain from fighting a Keeper, well there would be if said members are cabal members.

Just trying to get the ball rolling.

[Hondorian]

I'm speaking from recent experience. I'm slightly passive in my playing lately. In the sense that things don't seem too unbalanced. So, I have no basis for complaining.

I have no problem with things as long as it's fun. I'd say it's because I'm trying new classes that I'm having my ass handed to me. A round, plump stationary ass.

I don't really seem to get the upper-hand in most situations. But that's part of the learning experience, right? Eventually, I'll find a race/class combination that will suit me well. Gah. I want a Slith Warrior Justice again! Or maybe my Stone Giant Warrior Justice again. Hmm, I should go Warrior. Everybody is doing it. Give in to temptation!

[Davairus]

Dwarf then.