Legion nerfed

[mel]

I did haste Ugula... I agree. However I didn't do it nearly as much as people used it as an excuse for why he was beating their head in.

[Louis]

and who would turn down haste when they had immediate access to it?

i wouldn't, unless i felt there was something to prove.

[TheOneAndOnly]

If there is nothing to prove then there shouldn't be a battle to begin with. I see little to no reason in slaughtering a character, this holds even at 50 and involving cabals. There is no reason for senseless PK, if you want to see how much damage you can do then find some mob to beat on. I think that the mindset I need to PK someone is partially what takes away from the RP aspect of the MUD. What if perhaps instead of slaughtering some gimp 50 elf healer you sit down and talk to him, make him fear you. Getting into peoples head can give you the edge in any battle no matter the experience level, it should be harder to get into the heads of vets. Here lately for instance I have noticed an immense number of SUPER aggressive halfling thieves. I do not think that in any aspect a neutral halfling should be aggressive, stealing sure, it's what halflings do, but actually stabbing someone seems a bit out of character for a child sized good natured creature. Just a thought.

[E-ant]

[TheOneAndOnly]

I believe you are missing my point. You can fear someone on many levels. I think that it should be expected to be PKed or fight someone at least once. But after you have proven dominance in the PK field why not try to defeat them mentally? Any player can run in and lag someone to death, when someone successfulyy PK's someone I break it down to see how difficult the kill would be, meaning Player A is playing a shaman, and he killed some gimp warrior, not too difficult. But if the tables were turned and that warrior landed a kill on that shaman then I would have to look into greater factors- was the shaman prepared? Flying? Sanced? My point is that PKing can be the easier part of the game, get into their head and you win on a completely different level. Case in point look at Resatimm, he is a good PKer, but people were afraid of him, not just because he could land sleep and one round kill you, but also because he find you, hurt you and flat out scare you. But I don't believe he ever found it necessary to trash pk some guy 10 times in a row. I could be wrong though. I am just saying that it is possible to beat someone on mutiple levels, and I think too few people attempt to defeat people on a mental level.

[E-ant]

But no one feared Res for telling them 'Boo! I r rp'

[GodOfWar]

[E-ant]

so you're saying that 'I r bodyslam you now, me big giant' scares more than actual bodyslamming?

[GodOfWar]

You're missing out on all the little subtleties of the subject at hand. It's not death that bothers people because death is relatively quick and once it's happened you can just move on.
What really gets people is the FEAR of death. And that, unlike death, can be extended and drawn out into an excrutiatingly long process of constant fear. It's basic psychology. Infect with massive doses of fear, you can even go so far as to cause physical harm, but not death, to "emphasise" the point so to speak. Then when the fear is at it's height, releive some of the tension by offering a way out, in the form of services performed, undying loyalty, sworn allegiance/servitude, whatever. It's the ancient technique of Ghengis Khan, Alexander the Great, Joseph Stalin, your beloved and evil murderers and dictators of the past that have gained them countless loyal servents for their murderous armies. It's how power, whether real or imagined in the mind of the victim is explioted to it's absolute fullest.
Of course, this ain't for everyone. You have to have considerable powers of persuasion and charisma at your disposal. Not to mention the power of complete and utter bullshitting if you're really not as tough as you think you are. It's just fun having a small army of lackeys when you're not even caballed. Just makes things a bit more interesting.

[TheOneAndOnly]

By your respone E-ant the "I r bodyslam u now..." it is obvious we are talking on completely different levels of roleplay here. I am saying that if you could infect someone with so much fear that they are willing to remove items and hand them to you instead of you killing them, or telling a thief to go kill another thief or he will have to face you, and when the thief is slain you get the items of your choosing from the loot...all this out of fear of having to face you..now that is awesome. Power perceived is power achieved, Resatimm didn't kill half the people that quit out at his presence, he didn't have to, they saw him running through the better players and he didn't have to do anything else. My whole point is that people need to get away from the I want your eq, or I am bored I want to PK mentality. The lack of experience in the player base is killing the game on so many levels and the ones that do hold the experience are so caught up in padding their egos with these newb kills that they are forgetting their roles as teachers. I learned everything I know from getting smashed and running around with people who would tell me what they were doing. That just doesn't happen too often these days. Pking is awesome and I do my fair share, but if for one second I think my victim is a newb I call the whole thing off, no matter the alignment. You have to remember that there is someone else sitting on the other end of that character, someone who obviously has enough interest in AR to connect and play, and we need as many people as we can get.

[E-ant]

Ohh, we're talking about AR, thought this was the FL forum... My bad

[Louis]

even though i'm not in it, i am kinda liking this debate.

personally i've never been totally on one side or the other side of the argument.

[chakavak]

I'm pretty much a newbie to this MUD so please don't bash me too much, though I am no newb to mudding. What I think, is any ENFORCED restrictions to any organisations is a pretty stupid thing; if the Leader of Legion decides that members should not "gangbang" or spell up their cabal mates - that's fine, though if someone violates this rule, he shouldn't just outcast them, but should I don't know, pkill their ass or something, perhaps?
But simply denying people from spelling others up just because they are your cabal mates and your cabal is supposed to be the cabal of "loners" or some shit? ....... I don't know.

If that's a balance issue to make Legion less overpowering, how about add some incentive to join other cabals instead, make some kind of competition for them without actually putting in some rather stupid restrictions?

At least I think it woulda been kind of a more logical think to do...

And talking about all the "someone threatening to bodyslam you" being more fearsome than them actually doing that... I don't know, if some big ass scary mothereffer would be like, YO YOU GO DO THIS/THAT OR I KILL YA - well of course not such wording, but the idea is what matters... I'd probably do that - because it would be only right for my character to, well.. Respect wishes of their.. superiors? Unless what they said is really against my chars mentality etc bla bla yabba yabba. On other hand if he would just smash me... That would probably just make me hate them and avoid them - whilst perhaps also fearing them - but without really listening to them or anything.
Seriously, would you do something for someone who just tried to kill you? I don't know.

[Bones V2.0]

[chakavak]

Certain restrictions - maybe; but something like prohibiting people from casting spells on their friends and whatnot is rather.. huge. Massively unpleasant, might I say? I can't imagine myself playing in a cabal where I would be FORBIDDEN to assist others. Maybe it's just me, but umm.. From the RP point of view, even if they are solitaire power mongers, using spells on their cabalmates to aid them in slaying whomever doesn't sound all that out of theme, or whatever..
And from the point of balance... I'd really hate if there would be any rules that would restrict me like this.
I personally wouldn't even consider joining Legion right now after reading all this (Not that I'd ever have a chance to get in, but still...)

[Bones V2.0]

[Hamp]

Perhaps it's because people joined Legion and not Warlords or Assassin? They knew from the beginning if they were to join Walords or Assasins they'd be by themselves, the people in Legion at the time didn't. All though now it isn't that big of a deal and really wasn't that could be the reason why.

[TheOneAndOnly]

Taking into consideration that this thread was reactivated by a player new to this mud I shall refrain from my original course...I would like to point out that this change fits perfectly in line with the recent changes to cabals (i.e class restrictions.) Knights are restricted by code, meaning a Monk can serve neither Knights or Legion, Illusionist (extremely potent PK class) can be in Legions but not in Knights. In short by code of conduct a Knight is permitted to cast/commune spells on one another (as goods are expected to aid one another) and Legions with the classes permitted should not require the aid of one another in that capacity anyways. Now keep in mind that coordinated attacks are nearly as deadly as recieving haste from your illusionist friend. In closing I would like to point out that the Cabals are meant for the better to best players of the game and quite frankly it is extremely discouraging to see Legion crumble with such a simple change, I had thought the former members of much sterner stuff, guess I was wrong. That's all I got.

[Davairus]

Yeah the cabal changes basically what we've seen pushing for on the forums, less ganging, deeper interactions, its the direction the players have been wanting the mud to go in. If we were going to design for group of 3 being the norm for pking, as opposed to an every man for himself type of experience, I'm sure there'd be a much different approach to that, from ground up (either much more hp, or much less damage, the most simple and noticeable change that could be made). That said we are going for a middle ground somewhere between those two extremes. Thats why for example, Legion's guidelines have a special escape clause that makes the rest void, should the dark lord decide to. Knights also got pretty free reign on ganging powerful evils. All bets off for all cabals when it comes to item retrieving and defence. So If you really want your fight to take place in groupv s group, then all you have to do is raid someone elses cabal, and you'll get that. Simple.

Legion is an evil organisation.. But RP aside, a fair multiplayer exprerience is what this game is about, its hard to justify large (like 3 on 1) odds, upon every player on the mud. Especially when they're the best skilled players on the game to begin with. With the extra cabal skills they get just from being in Legion cabal of course.

[Hamp]

It isn't that they weren't made out of sterner stuff, the only ones in it at the time were Lothilakon, Kragon(I think), Azaran, Britck, and some necro. The last three would have been kicked changes or not, from screwing up all the time. I being Lothilakon just got bored so made a different char. Kragon well guess he got bored and made another Legion.