a race for ninja

[stanislav]

I have hard time finding a 'better' option for myself, because I am not really knowledgeble about the game. So, I meed some sort of a pro advice on this, with detailed explanation of pros and cons of the races and ethos(chaotic vs neutral). I dont like avians as a race at all and I dont see anything special about humans. So basically, I am debating between h-elf and drow.

I've read a helpfiles about races and ethos, but still would like to hear an advice of experienced players because I probably miss alot of details and equipment knowledge.

What I -already- know:

H-elf pros:
- can be neutral align
- learns fast and has high int. 1 prac per skill is enough
- no vulns

H-elf cons:
- may be stats? but I dont think a tradeoff of 1 str for 1 dex is a big deal compared to a human. saved pracs go to hp. more mana than human, if that matters for a ninja at all.

Drow pros:
- highest dex for ninja
- learning from 1 prac
- legacies
- autosneak
- drow just cool and also evil, may be a pro?

Drows cons:
- vulns is an ouch
- evil race with no protection with vulns is a double ouch
- no mithril, no silver equipment
- shit stats aside of dex

So its basically a pick between "good but nothing special" vs "very cool bunch of vulns" for me. Did I miss anything about pros or cons about any of these two races?

Same with ethos:

Chaotic: using wild items(including some sets of eq), but has problem with justice and cannot use 'civilized' eq.
Neutral: just neutral, nothing special. no cool wild eq, but there are plently of good non-wild eqipment so not a big deal.

Which one would you guys suggest?

p.s. Thank you for advices.

[Arishel]

H-Elf Pros:

- Half-elves have a lot of racial legacies available.
- Half-elves don't have a high exp cost.
- Mediocre stats across the board as opposed to unique race(s).

H-Elf Cons:

- Can't be evil (I understand this, but if you like to be evil, then..)
- Can't really think of much else.

Drow Pros:

- High Int & High Dex (Makes them awesome mage/ninja option).
- Racial legacies are there for Ninja & Dark-Knight.
- Autosneaking is good to have (Especially for thief/ninja/Invoker)

Drow Cons:

- Vulns do hurt, but with time, you can get around it.
- 18 Str allows for only carrying so much (Especially if you're used to playing a high str race).
- One of the Hightest Exp cost Races to choose from.


I would suggest picking a half-elf class that a Drow can also be. That way you "learn the ropes" with the half-elf, but by the time you get to where you want to be a drow, you know how the class works in and out. The only thing that will change in your quest through said class is equipment/RP and experience. I hope this helps you in some way, and welcome back.

[Erlwith]

I don't know about the wild item fine/penalty via Justice so besides that here is what I think. And I'm going to list avian because that is a pretty badass ninja race imo. these are my thoughts for you.

Drow

Pro:

Auto-sneak is great for rogues.

Obvious stats catered towards mage/rogue skills like dirt.

Racial legacies that can make you a killing machines and a master escape artist.

Advantageous leveling spots, that high dex rogue classes can really shine in.

Con:

This combo is going to be very hard to master. It is unlikely as a starter ninja you will have much of any success.

Low ranks will be difficult. You'll have a shit HP pool, and you'll get routinely cheesed by people 6-7-8 ranks above you.

A HUGE exp penalty will make leveling difficult, very difficult.

Very poor strength. Carrying items will be a pain. WILL BE a pain.

Stats. Poor parrying, poor natural HP gain.

The vuln thing can be irritating, especially when equipping early on or re-equipping. A lot of nice items you won't be able to wear.


Half-elf:
Pros

Obvious skill advantage.

Decent stats for a ninja. Decent stats also makes the grind from 1-50 much more favorable.

Large alignment selection making for great leveling, grouping, etc.



Cons

Half-elves do not strike me as outstanding. They are a middle of the road race imo. No stunning advantages or harsh vulns in the end game. And at 50 that quick skill up will not make as much of a difference in pvp.

Generally good legacies, but as a ninja, you'll have to get by without the advantages that make half-elves really shine, like boundless mastery or greginplate.

A new race/class combo, so there will be less information/logs and so forth for you to learn how to really make this combo shine.


Avian:
Pros

Flight. Near permanent flight is so awesome. It saves you, it ensures you can track anyone for as long as your heart desires, and with dual enhanced damage - you'll be a finisher for sure, it gives you a distinct advantage of being able to *choose* when you fly. You want to land a quick dirt? You can land, do that, and fly again if is your choice. Your opponent is landing dirt kicks with too much efficiency? You can just fly, landing when you think the moment is just right. For rogues I have found avians are pretty incredible, for flight alone.

Alignment. With avians you can choose neutral or evil, giving you great control of how your char advances.

Stats. Recent buffs to dex gives them a solid pool for a rogue. 21 int and 20 wis makes you a decent HP pool if you spend them correctly. Str for a decent parry as well.

Vuln. For me, the vuln was actually a benefit many times. You knew your opponent would almost guaranteed be holding a ivy sword w/e it is called. Or go for your vuln with w/e weapon, giving you the benefit of initiating with a lag skill or getting it in that first round with a potential dirt, etc.

Cons

Vuln. can also be a con, since it is pretty nasty.

Stats. Low con can make for poor HP without trains spent later.

Flight. can get you in some trouble if you aren't careful, but because you can choose when you fly, this disadvantage is much less disastrous for an avian.

When picking a class/race, *usually* the ones with the racial legacies, or special abilities, like ill ill - are going to be much more difficult to master. The legacies are in place to supplement their natural weaknesses, so you'll have to expect that a class/race like drow/ninja is going to have to heavily rely on those masteries to be successful while a half-elf/ninja is going to -have a much easier time just playing a straight forward ninja.

go for the type of playing you're looking for at the moment. with an avian/ninja i scored lots of kills just on the strength of unlimited moves + blindness dust + dual enhanced. i knew i wasn't going to be going for the practice patience-sit in the shadows-and wait style of play

[Mikoos]

Drows by far. I'm pretty sure their vuln has been changed to the point that it's basically not a vuln. The worst time a vuln was used against me was when a dark knight fought me with unholy strength, but since drows have a high dex one can hold their own against them if you hold weapon and combat advantage. Don't be an avian because they are weak to maledictives and faerie fire is a maledictive spell, plus ninjas can use fly scrolls anyway. Drows train very fast just do to their int, plus they have auto sneak. Which is such a "I win" skill. Just remember to keep combat advantage against warriors at all times, and use blindness dust. Also remember to use two-handed weapons when you clobber and uncanny. Start each battle with assassinate and your basically guaranteed to win.

[stanislav]

What is so special about blinding dust? Everyone mentions it as a great bonus, but I have no idea why. Does it last longer than dirt, or easier to hit, or ignores protective shield? From what I've seen it didnt last much longer than dirt and did minor damage(cant dust strangled people).

[Esivole]

I have seen blindness dust last for 13 rounds and goes through prot shield. It checks mal saves and hits the entire room, and in turn hits people you can and can't see.

Avian ninja is pretty fun, vuln = pain, same with drow. Half-elf is okay, fast training if you don't want to dedicate tons of hours to it. I don't know why no one has mentioned human yet.

Human pros:
Highest ninja str, this is great for parry after acupunture.
Still respectable dex, 21 is okay, everyone wants to hobble rogues, now you can fall back on a slightly better parry.
Highest con for ninja, 20. This is pretty good for a rogue.
Any align choice, don't forget they can be goods (this goes for half-elf too)
0 xp hole.
No vulns.

Human cons:
Lowest combined int/wis, generally slower training in turn.
No racial legacies.
No super powers (flying, learning, autosneak)
has less general appeal, who wants to be human afterall?

[Erlwith]

[Ceridwel]

Low half-elf constitution might come back to bite you in the ass if you die a lot.

[stanislav]

H-elves have 18 con and gain 10-14 comared to humans gaining 11-15 with 20 con. I dont know if you guys prac skills from 50% with 20 but for me 50 hps probably not worth going through all that skill spamming. So basically, humans gain roughly 50 hp more but h-elves get the same hp by converting 50 pracs into hps.

Are there any cool tricks with strangle involved? I used to play other roms where assassins did no damage with dust and could hit nerve on sleeping people. But it isnt an option here. As I see it, strangle is good for: getting multiple tries on blinding dust, observing your opponents weapon/combat setup and starting a fight with advantage, using scrolls with maledictions. Any other hints?

p.s. Does prot shield prevents strangle?

[Dogran]

prot shield does not prevent strangle. The Drow vuln was increased in that more types of weapons now hurt them. The number of weapons was reduced after that when testing was doen to find out the sheer number of weapons to hurt drow/elves. So materials were changed on a bunch of weapons. I liked strangling, and then switching to weapon advantage and assasinating that way. Worked against people who were keeping their hp below full sometimes.

[Mikoos]

The worst I've encountered are two handed silver polearms/spears, brilliant boxes are a dime a dozen, everyone uses them, but they have never been a problem for me. I imagine arrows do crazy amounts of damage, but with the very few times I've actually encountered someone with a bow, I just clobbered them, then blinded them and that was that. I don't know what has all changed, but it's my opinion not a fact, that it's easier to play a drow than it used to be.

[Erlwith]

blindess dust has/had a target cool down, you can't really spam it i don't think.

Not arguing your opinion mikoos, i just don't understand how a vuln that can now be accessed by more classes, and bypass more defenses/overcome more weapon/style advantages somehow "has been changed to the point that it's basically not a vuln".

jaux say mithril axes?

[Mikoos]

Why would anyone use a mithril axe against a drow ninja? When they can use a mithril/silver spear, which makes it difficult for the drow to dodge. Any bladed mithril/silver weapons are easily raked aside with uncanny and with a blinded enemy, it's so easy. I do know there are different levels of vuln and mithril/silver are the weakest compared to light weapons. Especially compared to weapons that dish out rays. All classes are able to use brilliant boxes as it has been in the past. Any piercing silver/mithril weapon have always been a vuln. The fact that the other mithril and silver weapons can do a little bit more damage is no big deal. The only time I would use one would be at a lower rank than 50. I'd rather use an rare weapon(or a light weapon) and if it's silver then that's just icing on the cake.
Edit:I forgot to mention that this is considering that a person can even wield a weapon after being hit with poison mastery.

[Erlwith]

[Vanisse]

erlwith, it's a ninja post

[Erlwith]

Just read the post below.

[Dogran]

He wasn't arguing that part, but simply stating that claiming the drow vuln to mithril/silver was hardly a vuln at all isn't true.

[Vanisse]

even so, we should try to stay on topic to help the original poster, no? this is interesting and all but going way off topic.

[Davairus]

That human vs half-elf hp thing is bullshit. 1 point of con gives you 1 extra hp for level, not half a hp. That means humans get 100 more hp, not 50 hp and then trumped by training. Couldn't you 1-prac a human anyway? This training argument is completely moot. Human ninjas get an extra 100 hp over half-elf ninjas for 1 less point of dex, and 1 point better strength. The only way it could work out better to be a half-elf now is whether that int/wis defensive buff (which I noticed is not on the website.. we'll fix that), slightly better chance to trip, dirt-kick, and slightly easier training is worth it to you. I advise that 100 hp is an amount not to be scoffed at. We'll get more info about stats added to the website ASAP.

[stanislav]