View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10356 Location: 0x0000
|
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
When you go from 2h to dual wield, why are you doing that? Probably because the enemy has shield block. He's meleeing a one-handed, its not going to school you instantly.
When you go from 2h to shield block, why are you doing that? Because the enemy has 2h with you. Its even style. The change isn't necessary, you can fly with that. You don't have to budge quickly at all, he sure won't. You can duke it out evens and maybe hobble with the right str. Its an okay fighting position.
You don't seem to be pointing that anyone can throw on 2h-style right away, any time they want. Some of other styles that require multiple equipping, don't take quite as long to change to/from. Dual wield to shields is a good exception, but as you'll know those get hammered nastily by overheads & barrages, whereas 2-h is really quite safe to do. You'll notice when people try to actually leave 2-handed, their enemy has the opportunity of a much quicker switch. Its a bit of a design flaw in these cumbersome weapons - you're kinda trapping yourself inside this safe bubble, and it can be difficult to get back out of if your sense of timing is pretty awful.
Remember that overbear offers more flexibility with 2h weapons, and also that berserkers have ability to style change with rage. There's a soup of skills to balance alongside this, which I don't know if you actually were about to touch on, but it looked like you might do. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Nakachi
Joined: 08 May 2006 Posts: 221
|
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Could you make the wield lag only in PK situations? I think the lag on mobs is a bit ridiculous... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
pip
Joined: 22 Jan 2004 Posts: 247 Location: You're in Trouble Now Room
|
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
it's basically just going to make it where no one wants to pk unless you are a mage class. seeing as a warrior's ability to kill is based on his speed and combat advantage knowledge, so it's just going to be
i'm at combat disadvantage; flee, wear different weapons, come back in murder, notice you are at weapon disadvantage again, flee, change, murder again, then wash rinse repeat |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Shughurd
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 128 Location: Estonia
|
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Nakachi's idea is good, when it comes to ease the xpgrinding, but it's rather unrealistic.
Altho today when making a new char, those freaking spamdisarming goblins really pissed me off with the new delay.
Also, tried to fight some warriors today, yes it was a flee fest trying to spam-murder each other, i found out how to prevent em doing that tho, hobble/dirt whatever works good for it once you got the advantage, but its pretty hard to get when you just spamswitch weapons with your sparring partner.
Here's another idea, make the switch delay adrenaline dependant, if you got PK adrenaline and even if you flee, switching suffers those round lags, due your hands shaking from adrenaline? Would make spam-fleeing pointless. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10356 Location: 0x0000
|
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
Well the way I see it is mob fighting is practice for the real stage - if you're playing a different game most of the time, you're going to be totally confused when you're in a real pk and switching in combat suddenly lags you. So no we wont do that.
PK-adrenaline only... that's a pandora's box I'd rather not open. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10356 Location: 0x0000
|
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
Murder update :
Flying now causes additional lag when murdering. The same goes for against any flying target - if the opponent is flying, there will be more lag from murdering. Avians are exempted from the penalties on their own natural form of flying.
I wouldn't assume automatically that this is supposed to completely counter this weird flee-wield stuff you're talking about, but it is a counter, and also has benefit for people playing mages that can't handle that kind of murder pressure. Fighter classes have plenty good reasons to stay grounded, though an avian could be really annoying. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Slade Emissary
Joined: 17 Mar 2004 Posts: 666
|
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
As to how this impacts intended fix: I still don't see fighters flying on each other much (chargable, dirts and other stuff starts sucking). But if so, this could reopen turtling problem. If the murder'er is getting extra lag for murdering whether he or the other guy is flying, he might do this -> instead of flee switch murder, he might flee switch, let the other guy initiate on him so he can then insta style action, assuming the other guy didnt switch also. Kind like it used to be except no counter to cushion your turtling. Not really saying anything much here, it was just a very minor thought. If anything you eating a murder probably equals your gain from insta style action.
How it fixes another problem: Mages tend to fly, and they have long been vulnerable to the very lethal flee murder, so this is very nice for them. Clerics.. arguable, but they might not have needed the help. I think all the ridiculous hit/dam warriors owning lately doesnt do justice to the fact that clerics are still very good.
Curveball: This helps mages in a good way - good. If you wanted though theres an angle to slightly help rogues here too. Rogues are conceptually supposedly the mage killers, right? Well, how about making rogues exempt from the extra lag when murder'ing fliers. (As to this negatively impacting the counter intention considering say a warrior fighting a rogue, well I don't think the rogue is going to be flee switch murdering a fighter, it would be flee switch dirt, flee switch clobber, or flee switch trip, or even flee switch ikuzachi, so thats alright). You could chalk it up to their dexterity or whatever RP spin you wanted to put on it. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Shughurd
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 128 Location: Estonia
|
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
I saw damn many rank 15-30 avians tonite!!!1 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10356 Location: 0x0000
|
Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
Okay here's the "new" things we have now.
1. Quick wield - This is a new rogue's ability to allow them to switch their weapons quickly.
2. Quick draw - This is a new ranger's ability, similar to quick wield, bows only.
3. Wild smash - This is a new berserker's ability, basically a similar operation to the former overhead skill you've been used to.. but more generalised. i.e. get combat even/advantage, and you can usually dispense this damage ability with no further trouble. Its not as sophisticated as the other combat skills, just a nasty hit. Requires rage/wild weapons (either). Berserkers won't have any finesse- switching type abilities like the other classes, so they'll just be relying on brute force a little more than their peers do.
4. Overhead crush - I've put a wind-up on this similar to windmill cleave. Its been cheesy on initiates since forever, but that's needed for using upon tick-whoring sleepers,. also switch/overhead was arguably a lot better than switch/hobble, especially with the disarms being difficult to re-arm now. Its about time.
5. Autogrip - this is an auto for warriors so that they can turn off their auto doublegripping. Since doing this lags you'll probably want the option. (e.g. going from polearm to dual wield with auto-doublegrips is 4 rounds to switch to a one-handed weapon, because that overbears right away, and then 3 rounds to dual wield, because you have to break overbear. You might prefer to turn this off, but it has its good points, so there's the auto and we'll let you choose.)
I am sure you can figure out the implications of everything from there.. so just keep playing with it, if you find problems, brainstorm ideas FIRST, post the problems WITH solutions, and wait for peer review. We are going to have to do our best not to fudge this.
Some helpfiles will be coming along when I've had a break. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Mandor
Joined: 03 Mar 2006 Posts: 794
|
Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
everyone should also notice what this does to hold purple;quaff purple;wear shield. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Slade Emissary
Joined: 17 Mar 2004 Posts: 666
|
Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
I was going for murder lag exemption because that is their fight against clerics and mages. I was particularly thinking clerics, who rogues will have a real hard time with given murdering a scroll flying cleric will extra lag them, protective shield and weapon ward shut down most everything they have. It looks like it will be down to blackjack/assassinate and hopefully catching them with their pants down for them to have a chance there. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Xerties
Joined: 24 Feb 2006 Posts: 484
|
Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
Should I be getting lagged two rounds after wearing a shield from shield disarm? 1 hand = 1 round, right? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10356 Location: 0x0000
|
Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thieves can just steal the flying scrolls, ninjas get dust which is really horrible against a flying target. Also a good incentive to go avian for rogue because they're exempt, too bad that's vulnerable to disease though. Its almost as if I'd thought of that first isnt it?
Its ok that shamans are pretty good flying, coz they're just as vulnerable to mages when they mess up anyway. (e.g. fleeing dirted.. blind dust = dead more or less) No need to resort to assassinate there. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
trance_monkey
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 198
|
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
though I'm in favor of moving towards an environment less conducive to flee/murdering and favoring staying in combat, the extra murder lag from flying seems a bit harsh not just for rogues, but also for fighters?
Correct me if I'm wrong: If the mage keeps prot shield and ward up, they're immune to lag skills and combat skills. In my limited newbie-dom experience, flee/murdering was one of the only ways (only one I could think of) to beat a mage that kept his defenses up like that, especially shamans/healers. Save for the "catching them with their pants down" and catching a lucky drop of shield/ward/sanc, what have you. Waiting for that to happen isn't a reasonable strategy imo, tho.
Now, I guess that's not entirely out-the-window with the extra lag, but it certainly sounds uglier. I guess I'm curious if there's any way to entice a fighter/rogue to want to stay in combat with a mage? I don't get why fights with spellcasters have to be so mundane that no combat skills can be used, even if to a less efficient degree than against other fighters.
Also, Healers are sounding pretty pimp right now. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
MrCarb
Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 170
|
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Just a quick clarification; when you say that rogues can change weapons quickly, does that mean instantly (or at the negligable pre-change delay)? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Slade Emissary
Joined: 17 Mar 2004 Posts: 666
|
Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
Rescue also got a dangerous boost depending on how severe the murdering fliers lag penalty is. Worst case: Special guards, Illusionists who aren't using autoassist but who have already misdirected you plus have mirrors up.. but everything really. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10356 Location: 0x0000
|
Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
trance_monkey wrote: |
though I'm in favor of moving towards an environment less conducive to flee/murdering and favoring staying in combat, the extra murder lag from flying seems a bit harsh not just for rogues, but also for fighters? |
That's the idea, to have a counter for flee/murders, which people pointed out correctly that people were going to resort to even more. Its true, they will. And its a problem. And this is the solution. But it isn't a simple get-out-of-jail card either, because flying itself has counters. You should be able to see that:
1) fighters basically can't use it (will *have* to skirmish each other, and they *do* have skirmish-based skills like charge vs fliers, aerial shots, etc)
2) rogues are pretty ok using this because they have their thing about rubbing out dirts much faster. And mages of course, which could be hosed by flee murders rather easily.
3) flight can actually be dispelled, or run its course, whatever
In other words it has some limitations and things it affects mostly fall really nicely with the new thingy.
Quote: |
Correct me if I'm wrong: If the mage keeps prot shield and ward up, they're immune to lag skills and combat skills. In my limited newbie-dom experience, flee/murdering was one of the only ways (only one I could think of) to beat a mage that kept his defenses up like that, especially shamans/healers. |
The key to beating classes like this "with a warrior" is intended to be to "get uber". If you don't they'll toast you faster with spells. That's kind of the point of mages, which are themselves somewhat eq-dependent (savebreak) but not nearly so much as warriors. Its a class meant for experienced players - they want to pk, and they don't need 1000 hp to get by. So they take a huge hp nerf for the extra offense a mage gets. Look at the /players page and you can see a lot of people dont think mages worth it. There's still nearlya hundred warriors here. So either all those guys are noobs, or mages arent quite as "immune" as you are making them out to be.
Fighter vs mage are meant to be exciting explosive battles and poorly equipped warriors should go into them expecting to lose, and lose badly. See, its kinda one big cycle of butt kicking, where the mages have a huge advantage over those warriors, but what is a mage going to do about a smart cleric with 50 damroll out-healing him? Not so much. And then you have rogues coming in and really pissing off clerics and mages with pry and backstab. But the rogue is berserker food. I'm not saying those matchups can't be won, but its clear where the advantage is. Its something to consider when picking a character.
Quote: |
catching a lucky drop of shield/ward/sanc, what have you. Waiting for that to happen isn't a reasonable strategy imo, tho. |
A warrior is actually easier to play than a mage if you think about it, all you need is to suit up on damage (ok, kill some mobs) and wear a couple rings. Then you're set. You dont have to refresh spells every couple ticks, or worry about your mana efficiency because its going to run out if you keep doing that.
Whats wrong with waiting to catch people's spells down anyway? Try being on the mages side, again, where you have to spam spells uselessly against high saves. Its way easier to just wait doing "nothing" and hit bash when you see spell drop, because the mage had forgotten it and decided to lag himself with something lame like a curse spellcast.
Quote: |
I don't get why fights with spellcasters have to be so mundane that no combat skills can be used, even if to a less efficient degree than against other fighters. |
Ok, are you familiar with the concept of a strategy game? I would think so. Now, lets say you have a warrior and a mage. The warrior wears plate, the mage wears cloth. The mage takes full damage from the warrirors attacks. The warrior (no saves) takes full damage from the mages spells. Still with me? Now. Throw in saves. While the mage is *STILL* taking awesome damage from the warriors weapons, that warrior is wearing saves and resisting spells. To top this off, warriors begin with more hp and 3 defences. And mages are supposed to combat this, how? I think we'd start by shutting down as many of their skills as possible?
You have to realise that if life gets harder defensively for mages, they'll just have to be buffed even stronger offensively to make up for it. Believe me, warrior fanboy's won't want that.
Quote: |
Also, Healers are sounding pretty pimp right now. |
What are they going to do, heal people to death? They're flying punching bags. And their flying is as counterable as everyone elses - dispel, dirt, hobble, charge - those four things have to be protected against in completely different ways. Maybe your idea of "pretty pimp" is ability to hoard eq because thats all healers excel at. And thats certainly not new.
Quote: |
when you say that rogues can change weapons quickly, does that mean instantly (or at the negligable pre-change delay)? |
Its not instant, but its much quicker than warriors can do that. They'll have no problem getting on top of a warrior skills-wise if they don't flee a combat. Along with the flying vs murder thing, a smart thief has a good shot at keeping himself out of hobble, but he's taking a risk when he tries to do his skills. Basically every time a warrior switch a weapon, a thief has an opportunity to switch faster and nail him with a good skill. But the warrior has hobble, and that's a damage holocaust for rogues.
Rescue issue was a valid point but the real issue is the charmies being such good meat shields. In some cases (e.g. necro zombie, special guard) its supposed to be the case. With a pet boar not so much. For now illusionist charmies can be considered meat shields, but the validity of that is questionable (and always has been to be honest). |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Accident-Prone
Joined: 27 Jan 2004 Posts: 95 Location: Outside your window
|
Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Just a quick question on the quick wield skill for rogues. Do you gain proficiency in the skill by equipping weapons while in combat? Since this has been introduced I have not seen it raise one percent. I have been doing alot of weapon switching. Just curious is all. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Xerties
Joined: 24 Feb 2006 Posts: 484
|
Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Just tried using wild smash while raged and I said I needed a weapon equipped. Do they have to be wild? I thought it was either/or. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Slade Emissary
Joined: 17 Mar 2004 Posts: 666
|
Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
Just realized zerks probably should be exempt from this lag when raged. This really just applies when they use the throw skill. Throwing your weapon, getting like 2 rounds of using your fists, equipping and getting another 2 rounds of lag for equipping, is obviously beyond not worth it. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|