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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10353 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:28 am Post subject: [2018 Q3] Scissors Paper Rock |
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Lets have a frank and honest discussion about this. I want to write here that weapon type and combat style are both complicated enough to be overkill together and makes me avoid playing my shit. I'd like to kill weapon advantage and make the respective skills (e.g. sidestep) go off of combat styles. If you guys think I'm being extreme please let me know. |
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Nycticora
Joined: 09 Feb 2013 Posts: 2277
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Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:14 am Post subject: |
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when I play a hybrid I get a twohanded polearm with maximum top end damage and curse it so I can't be disarmed and never switch ever
when I play a mage I max out AC and keep ward up so it doesn't matter whether or not my opponent has advantage
when I play a healer or shaman I wield Vainglory, period
I never play a rogue or a warrior |
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Ceridwel Immortal
Joined: 01 Feb 2008 Posts: 3387 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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I am all for making the game easier to play for newbies, and therefore am a big proponent of doing away with weapon advantage. Definitely. |
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Olyn Immortal
Joined: 23 Jul 2008 Posts: 3250 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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I think this is a good idea. Rogue skills would need sorted out a bit, but we can definitely do it. We could probably reuse the prompt info to reveal the opponent's actual weapon type (sword/bow/etc) instead of blade/shaft/segment. |
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Kato
Joined: 03 Nov 2013 Posts: 219
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Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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This would be a nerf to certain races with vulns (dwarf / duergar especially). Just something to think about, not that I play those races anyway. |
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Ergorion
Joined: 16 Mar 2007 Posts: 2156
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Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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Rogue skills would definitely be impacted in a huge way. Uncanny you can use in any combat style. Same with clobber. Maybe make weapon advantage a rogue only perk and their skills can remain as is? |
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Nycticora
Joined: 09 Feb 2013 Posts: 2277
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Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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I say get rid of weapon advantage and just tie the skill to weapon type wielded |
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Taor
Joined: 10 Jul 2018 Posts: 16
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Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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+1 of removing weapon module. Main reason why I don't bother playing fighters or rogues. Hoard million weapons and juggle about like a Sherman |
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Vevier Immortal
Joined: 23 Jul 2008 Posts: 1642 Location: everywhere
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Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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I remember that I haf to work exceptionally hard to get the hang of this and I really only did so on Kewlin because of Justice weapons and unemployment, so i am in favor of reducing to one system. Combat style would be the better one to keep: imo its more intuitive. |
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Vertas
Joined: 17 Jan 2004 Posts: 1168 Location: Ewa Beach, HI
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Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not great at it, yes its difficult, but people should be rewarded for being able to do something that's difficult. +1 for opposed. |
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BlackWidow
Joined: 24 Apr 2014 Posts: 474 Location: Yes
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Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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In contrary to what has been said, I am in favour of keeping the weapon module. The general thing I do with rogues is set hotkeys for my moves, e.g. sidestep, uncanny, clobber. It makes the classes easier to play.
Also, without the weapon module I don't see how various weapons will compare with one another. Do we keep the parrying abilities previously used, or do we do something else? |
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Olyn Immortal
Joined: 23 Jul 2008 Posts: 3250 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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Weapons having different parrying ability predates the module and will stay. |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10353 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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Vertas I dont think the problem is that its difficult, I think the problem is that its difficult*difficult. That ends up make outcomes seem random and makes it unclear why things worked when they work, because its not giving good feedback. It makes it difficult to learn the game and maybe makes everything else feel like a burden on you, and then walk away from an ass kicking thinking shit if only i used a dagger instead of realizing you had no business trying that with 15 damroll. difficult+simple (maybe in this case, thats combat style+sanc/geared) is a much better combo
I mean, being able to run blind is difficult, and we're obviously not removing dirt kick, but in that case, you are not trying to run blind while also run blind in the other direction with a ghost of yourself to confuse the other player with, and we wouldnt even try to make that skill because it would be unplayable, but we could probably expect people to run blind+cast sanc if they can |
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Nycticora
Joined: 09 Feb 2013 Posts: 2277
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Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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what I've seen is that people will lose a fight because they have trash EQ but think the reason they lost the fight was because they had the wrong weapon type/style
the pieces of eq individually may not be trash but as a set the equipment makes no sense and lacks coherence. Usually the player has all hit/dam and has dumped every other stat, thinking if they have type advantage their high hit/dam will compensate for everything else.
This phenomenon has a lot to do with why healers and shamans work so well in reality when they are garbage on paper. Players don't care about hit/dam on these classes and don't wear equipment that gives no stats except hit/dam, and as a result mop the floor with everybody.
You might be suffering from this if you have ever ditched the dark armlets of vladimere for blackened arm guards or similar. |
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Vertas
Joined: 17 Jan 2004 Posts: 1168 Location: Ewa Beach, HI
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Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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Instead of removing the mechanic entirely can we lessen the benefits of it? |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10353 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:29 am Post subject: |
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Are you going to elaborate on that point or was the idea that I come up with all the ideas while you just say no to them
Please contribute something |
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Vertas
Joined: 17 Jan 2004 Posts: 1168 Location: Ewa Beach, HI
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Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:36 am Post subject: |
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Can we take a step back? You have some great analogies, I just want to make sure I’m understanding what you’re saying. Are you saying that combat is difficult*difficult because we have to worry about both type and style advantage? Essentially we are playing Rock Paper Scissors with two hands? |
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Nycticora
Joined: 09 Feb 2013 Posts: 2277
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Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:48 am Post subject: |
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yep |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10353 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:17 am Post subject: |
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Yes Vertas, and also, while I am still pretty far from an expert on understanding peoples behaviors, I'm feeling pretty confident that anybody worrying about no longer having the chore to swap to a water cube is going to find that vaporizes as soon as they equip the vorpal sword of atonement (good decision!) and realize the only decision left to make is whether to double grip that mother fucker
In fact , if you were already in this situation and weapon types were added suddenly, your reaction would probably be "yo, what the fuck" |
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Vevier Immortal
Joined: 23 Jul 2008 Posts: 1642 Location: everywhere
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Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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I'm excited about a move back towards simplicity. |
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