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phredjoenz
Joined: 18 Mar 2018 Posts: 41 Location: Florida
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:51 am Post subject: Orderly - Defned |
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So If I understand correctly items with the Flag: "Orderly" are in effect Anti-Chaotic? |
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BlackWidow
Joined: 24 Apr 2014 Posts: 484 Location: Yes
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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That is correct. Neutral ethos characters may also use "orderly" items. |
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Nycticora
Joined: 09 Feb 2013 Posts: 2277
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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orderly is the opposite of wild |
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Stiehl26
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 701
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Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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So instead of wild slashes that do a bunch of damage there are orderly slashes that do a bunch of damage, for example? Sorry for necroing the thread. Getting caught up on various changes over the years. |
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Ergorion
Joined: 16 Mar 2007 Posts: 2156
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Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think the orderly weapons come with any special effects per se, they're just unavailable to chaotics. |
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Stiehl26
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 701
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Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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So chaotic, I.e wild is the better option due to those huge damage spikes if that is the case? I am not sure I have grouped with anyone lawful, but watching non-berserker classes hitting obliterates and such with wild weapons makes me not want to play anything else.
I just wanted to know what was available to me on both ends of the spectrum chaotic vs lawful. Lawful is probably better for players who want a handicap because they are so good. |
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Olyn Immortal
Joined: 23 Jul 2008 Posts: 3252 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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I'm pretty sure the wild weapons actually average a little less damage than their non-wild counterparts over time, but those good RNG damage spikes can definitely create an opening in a drawn out PK fight. |
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Matrix
Joined: 30 Jan 2004 Posts: 159
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Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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10% of the time a wild weapon does 50% or 190% damage which means wild weapons do generally about 112% damage without weapon advantage assuming no other multiplicative damage increases like mounted combat, unholy strength, or crusade (divine sacrifice?).
Each time a wild weapon fails to be parried specifically because of weapon advantage the wild weapon also deals 50% or 190% damage.
Orderly weapons and armor have advantages that are similar in magnitude to wild weapons damage increase by virtue of having higher than normal stats for items of their levels and by having unusually high bonuses to stats that are rarely outside certain ranges (i.e. abnormally high +hitroll on a weapon or ac on a suit of armor). These bonuses are more significant when stacked to extremes. |
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Olyn Immortal
Joined: 23 Jul 2008 Posts: 3252 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, I thought I remember an adjustment to wild weapons so that they averaged less than other weapons. The math there suggests an increase of 2% damage when using wild vs non-wild weapons. |
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Stiehl26
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 701
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Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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A quick search of orderly weapons shows there are about 30 and there are about 60 wild weapons.
There are 12 wild weapons with averages of 25
There are 3 wild weapons with averages over 30
There are 8 order weapons with averages 25
There is 1 order weapon with an average 30
A quick search of the damage attribute anything 2 or higher shows:
There are 16 wild armor pieces with 2 damage
There are 3 wild armor pieces with 3 damage
There are 2 wild armor pieces with 4 damage
There are 24 orderly armor pieces with 2 damage
There is one orderly armor piece with 3 damage
There are no orderly armor pieces with 4 damage
I looked for intentionally high damage numbers and weapon averages because of the statement of order items being generally better. It seems that orderly wins out on the 2 damage items, but not the highest end items. Maybe it is closer than it seems? |
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Ergorion
Joined: 16 Mar 2007 Posts: 2156
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Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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Awesome work digging up those numbers. Definitely helps to get some numbers in the mix.
The one thing someone else said was that the damage might be higher than when you account for the level of the item. So like of those orderly avg 25 weapons are easier to get (on weaker mobs, or lower level so requestable earlier) then that would give orderly a boost in the lower ranks. But it does seem like wild still has an edge in the top-tier stuff. |
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Matrix
Joined: 30 Jan 2004 Posts: 159
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Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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idk how you get 2 out of (50+190)/2 *10% unless I'm an order of magnitude off and it's 1.2%. I'm drunk right now so that's possible, I'll have to come back to it later
@stiehl not all wild/orderly items are weapons. iirc there are more orderly non-weapons than wild non-weapons but there might be an unusually high number of wild containers. I know there are some specific orderly armor pieces that definitely are of equal power to wild weapons of the same level
Last edited by Matrix on Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ergorion
Joined: 16 Mar 2007 Posts: 2156
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Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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Stiehl was saying there are more 2-damage items available for orderly players than there are for wild players. But other than that there are more wild items available. |
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Matrix
Joined: 30 Jan 2004 Posts: 159
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Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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yeah I was replying to olyn's 2% damage number |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10368 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:25 am Post subject: |
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Posting to remind you guys to factor in the crappy grazes that wild weapons also do. Its not all big dick double damage |
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Matrix
Joined: 30 Jan 2004 Posts: 159
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:33 am Post subject: |
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still drunk but I'm gonna post anyway fear the unknown
"half or double" is a common logical trap when implementing systems like this. The lizard brain goes "oh, half and double works out to a wash" but in reality that's not what happens when you do the math on probability. If you have half or double, in the negative case you lose 50% but in the positive case you gain to 200% which works out to an average increase of 150% which is a vast net gain
so if you have a 10% chance of dealing 50% or 190% damage you have a net gain of 12%
this is why orderly items need to be that much more powerful than you might intuit, to make up for the power of wild weapons
and this is also why chaotic characters are discriminated against in many aspects of roleplay, religion, and cabal realations and why justices confiscate wild weapons |
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Stiehl26
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 701
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:35 am Post subject: |
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How are chaotics discriminated against? Are there cabals, other than Justice, that don't take chaotics? We need to make this discrimination end! |
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Matrix
Joined: 30 Jan 2004 Posts: 159
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:38 am Post subject: |
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yeah try being an elf thief in knights sometime, it's a worthwhile experience for any advanced player to see the hatred you receive |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10368 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:42 am Post subject: |
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is it half or double? i thought i remembered it removes all your damage, to basically nothing or double. can't look atm |
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Matrix
Joined: 30 Jan 2004 Posts: 159
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:47 am Post subject: |
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nope it never removed all damage. But it's been balanced around half or double and the max damage has been decreased from 200 to 190. In the burzuk era it was fully half or double, I suspect burz fell to the "half or double" fallacy back in the day when implementing this change and did not know how powerful he had made chaotic weapons. These days the power of chaotic weapons is tempered by certain orderly items which I will not name here but can discuss in IRC, two of which are particularly powerful in possibly unexpected ways. |
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