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tayyah
Joined: 20 May 2011 Posts: 597
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:11 am Post subject: |
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Honestly you really just aren't thinking this through clearly. If an average 14 dagger does MANGLES through sanctuary. What do you think an average 27 weapon is going to do??? Come on man |
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tayyah
Joined: 20 May 2011 Posts: 597
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:15 am Post subject: |
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Magic works on all giants just fine what you don't understand is giant skin affects physical that is why magic works because it avoids the giant skin. |
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twerpalina
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Joined: 16 Mar 2018 Posts: 307 Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:16 am Post subject: |
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I know what 27 average weapon would do, Trident of Paelloran used to be 27-28 average back in the day and dwarves were a plenty.
This is not about vuln weapons. This is about having a choice of decent magical weapons to have an EQUAL FOOTING against giants with physical resistance and access to insanely high average weapons due to oversized 1h capability.
If you play human warrior vs stone giant warrior, who will have the innate advantage with weapons? Giants destroy because of high STR (main factor to parry/hit through parry) and you need to maintain weapon advantage. You also need to maintain combat advantage because Giants can also hobble you w/o on equal combat style due to Str difference.
To make this perfectly clear to someone as clueless as you:
Human warrior:
3 weapons, magical. All 21-22 average.
Giant warrior:
3 weapons, whatever, 27-30 average.
Giant has parry/hobble/bash advantage.
Human has dirt kick advantage.
Where is the issue here? |
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tayyah
Joined: 20 May 2011 Posts: 597
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:21 am Post subject: |
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Well I argue that szrevan is doing just fine against giants as a slith. I only play giant warriors so I only know one side. But I know that side probably better than most. I can tell you from experience that there is a large abundance of weapons that you can choose from to kill a giant |
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tayyah
Joined: 20 May 2011 Posts: 597
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:23 am Post subject: |
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Well since you clearly have no argument, I'm just going to bow out. Davairus said it. Just rambles here |
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twerpalina
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Joined: 16 Mar 2018 Posts: 307 Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:26 am Post subject: |
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TL;DR
There is somewhat of a choice, limited by align/ethos of magical (not vuln, just to bypass resist) weapons that you can barely scrape together enough to have weapon/combat advantage. If you are lucky to get a 25 damage unique then yay, but regular folk have to get by with 21 average weapons or use DH/Valor wild weapons (again ethos locked).
On the other hand, a giant has a huge selection of whatever weapons he wants, also the borderline overpowered 30 average oversized weapons.
What this does is that you end up fighting with 21 average just to have a chance at combat / weapon style vs 25-30 average weapons almost every time.
Even if all else would be equal you'd always be at disadvantage as regular race vs giant race.
I am not exactly saying that you need a ton more high average magic weapons, I am just saying that perhaps stop adding so many insanely strong oversized weapons or just so many oversized weapons in general to stretch the disparity further? |
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tayyah
Joined: 20 May 2011 Posts: 597
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:38 am Post subject: |
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You are so funny. Yeah there are THOSE weapons. But they are unique. So it's only sweet if YOU get them. Of course they are. But every single weapon you listed on the giant side is unique too!!! So what is your response to that? It's not like they get some unlimited number of non rares. They are constrained by the same mechanics |
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tayyah
Joined: 20 May 2011 Posts: 597
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:39 am Post subject: |
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The weapons are there. Yes. They are unique. Shitty deal. Awesome weapons are one of a kind. TL/DR. Nothing to see here folks |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10359 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:40 am Post subject: |
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So.. on top of having more weapons they can hold in one hand, giants are also easily dispelled, summoned on top of an existing vuln, lagged worse by falling, and their 2 pracs per level and stupid int for training ensures many hours that feel wasted building this "monster". Weapon selection is important, we all know that. And all that hard work goes away when your opponent lands a dirt kick, right? What is the problem with giants having weapons they can hold in one hand? should elf lose their autosneak whlie we're at it. That doesnt seem very fair for a human warrior to deal with |
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twerpalina
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Joined: 16 Mar 2018 Posts: 307 Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:44 am Post subject: |
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also, there is no need for so many weapons to be oversized. Like 21 average emerald longsword? Why? Yet another disparity. It didn't used to be oversized.
The amount of oversized weapons with high average or availability is just too much.
Why is there so many of decent weapons oversized as if a bunch of 30 average uniques are not enough? That's the point I'm trying to make. It's already hard to find 4 decent non-oversized magic weapons if not impossible to have blade, shaft, segment and 2-hander that are at least 21 average damage.
A giant sized race vs giant has way better choice of weapons, like WAY better.
This is essentially a huge problem to finesse races and nobody really cares, because its just been giants dominating the fighter game anyway. I wonder why? |
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twerpalina
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Joined: 16 Mar 2018 Posts: 307 Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:46 am Post subject: |
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Giant warriors get blind fighting, serkers get defiance with rage.
Saying that dirt kick is a huge vuln to giants can easily be nulled by the argument that they have high str parry/hitting through parry, easy to land hobble and bash... |
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twerpalina
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Joined: 16 Mar 2018 Posts: 307 Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:50 am Post subject: |
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Anyway, all this is so easy to simulate/theorycraft from the data at hand.
No one just bothers. So I stop bothering too.
If we start adding other aspects such as "oh but giant gets slept easier by necro" then we are just stretching this argument to infinity and its totally futile.
Talking about finesse warrior vs giant-sized warrior here and the selection of weapons to give them equal footing, disregarding dirt or parry/hobble/bash advantages. |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10359 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:54 am Post subject: |
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There are other classes, paladin and dark-knight, who will *want* a two-handed weapon. They need it for set parry. The emerald sword is oversized because (A) it is held by a dragon (B) it is targetted for dark-knights (if that wasn't clear from the mob holder being an egotistical evil king). Its not all as simple as you are making it outl |
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twerpalina
BANNED
Joined: 16 Mar 2018 Posts: 307 Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:55 am Post subject: |
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Also, literally the last thing I even bother to say is that this is not about "make humans are strong as giants" or some shit whatever you think without even bothering to actually put any thought into it.
It's about having tools to outplay a powerhouse giant as a human/dwarf/elf whatever warrior.
Your only chance to win is to outplay them with your weapon/combat advantages.
If you lack the fucking tools to do so because there is none in the game (find me 4 reliable magic weapons that are not align/ethos locked I dare you?) then this is bullshit, thats all there is to it. |
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twerpalina
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Joined: 16 Mar 2018 Posts: 307 Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:56 am Post subject: |
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4 reliable magic weapons that are not complete shit* |
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tayyah
Joined: 20 May 2011 Posts: 597
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:56 am Post subject: |
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He just listed two random mental spells. I wouldn't be surprised if they did get slept easier than non giants, another mental spell. The spells probably check into/Wis and who knows what else(both very low on giants). |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10359 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:57 am Post subject: |
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i cant reply to all of your points because you posted another two times while I was writring my reply. you idiot
guess thats fine since you probably are already typing another post while i write this and not going to read anything i write anyway |
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twerpalina
BANNED
Joined: 16 Mar 2018 Posts: 307 Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:03 am Post subject: |
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I am reading all your posts and trying to explain the issue you want to derail.
If a neutral/lawful character wants to go fight a badass giant he cant even get Valor/DH magic weapons.
He has to find 4 shitty rares with 21 average to fight some overpowered oversized weapons just because he NEEDS to outplay combat/weapon advantage to have a chance at winning.
He needs to keep those 4 shitty magical rare weapons with him and makes him unable to even have a decent weapon selection of physical weapons against other classes too.
Literally, the DH/Valor wild magical weapons are the only thing keeping this afloat. Otherwise there would be no other viable options.
I am not just talking out of my ass, its tons and tons of research and theorycrafting that's been shat on by ignorance.
Therefore fuck this, I am never going to mention anything. Your game do as you please. |
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tayyah
Joined: 20 May 2011 Posts: 597
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:04 am Post subject: |
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sword of seasons, deadly whip of bluish fire, smoldering black mace, icy blue dagger, mace of disruption, marmelade orb, skull-headed mace |
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twerpalina
BANNED
Joined: 16 Mar 2018 Posts: 307 Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:04 am Post subject: |
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tayyah, you must be literally retarded if you consider extremely rare UNIQUES "reliable rares to get" |
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