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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10368 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:45 am Post subject: [2019 Q2] Berserker rage redo |
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At this point, after a fair bit of extra life experience, I think it would be much better approach if these berserker-only skills did not cost rage to use, but instead all of them generated it, and that eventually ended in autorage for overfilled meter (i.e. the threshold). So the berserker would have to be careful not to build up too much fury (i.e. exced his threshold), otherwise he is going to overheat and eat autorage when he doesnt want to. I woulud actually happily allow 100% rage so that a player can try to take things to the absolute LIMIT, if they dare, but a point more will autorage the zerker and possibly cause a difficult situation.
Some obvious implications :
* different races, or different specs of berserker, could have a different threshold before they snap.
* there should be no way to relax while raged. Relax skill would allow an attempt to reduce rage, only below the threshold. There can be other ways to do this, probably more effective, like eating lair plants or whatever.
* calm would become of possible benefit to berserkers, a double-edged sword though
* using "berserk" to drain all current fury would feel really intuitive and I'm sure having that available would cause some people to fly too close the sun and autorage themselves by accident, which I'd like to see.
* mania would prevent rage from leaving naturally over time, instead of the movement drain it is doing, because we can now recognise rage as a hampering mechanic not a buff.
* rage should drain slowly, and much faster when the berserker has lost sight of his opponent. I think this would cause an interesting cat-and-mouse game where a player tries to keep in the same area as the berserker to keep him angry, because if he just bolts off at 300 mph hes going to make the berserkers anger management a lot easier
* killing an opponent can drain the bar completely
* berserkers retain the right to type out RAGE and go mental whenever they actually want to do it.
* We can discuss this in more depth if you guys want, but I think more or less any action that causes a player to feel fear is a fair candidate for generating some fury for a berserker, except I think being low health isn't a candidate because we are usually experienced enough to manage our hp. This is an invitation to suggest other ways to cause a berserker to generate fury, e.g. hellstreaming him for sick damage
Impact on specs:
- the virgil spec does not need to change at all
- the fury spec. Restraint, would be very useful skill as it would allow a berserker to use his skills without generating as much anger, and resist the effects of anything else which causes his anger to build
I think this is actually a pretty complete fix besides any other unforeseen tweaks, so we wont need to do that split, but I am not saying 100% no to the idea, however I think we should assess that later.
I would also like to add weapon cleave back to berserker, its too obvious to have a skill that breaks stuff out of spite, thats exactly what people do. However, we do need to make sure it (A) requires a true rage, not just spam it like rakes or something, and (B) breaks both the berserker and targets weapons, so we retain the self-destructiveness property of rage.
I think this is a very good approach for berserker, having the gameplay focused on the control and temperment of battle rage for combat purposes, I think it is both intuitive to have a class which is intrinsically self-destructive, and also highly instructive about anger management to our playerbase, and I hope that you guys will be able to share that vision with me. I'll add to that, it does seem to me too that this gauges thing may not be a great fit for the game. I'm not sure of that yet, but I am sure that if we can't execute it well with berserker rage, then we probably should back off from all our gauges. At this point I thought it had worked well with monks and healers, and shadows too really, but I didn't yet understand anger well enough to do the same with berserker, and I think I have things correct this time. If that proves to be wrong later, then I'll conclude I was wrong about all of it. |
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Faelon Emissary
Joined: 23 Feb 2006 Posts: 938 Location: Your moms house.
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Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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I've always felt that berserkers should be overpowered, but should also be prone to dying in combat ALOT.
One of the problems I saw when I played Voglin, was that it only really took me getting uber geared to survive forever and that did not, even at the time, really feel true to the idea of a berserker. I should have died alot more, rather than be able to survive as often as I did. |
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Nycticora
Joined: 09 Feb 2013 Posts: 2277
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Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:53 am Post subject: |
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what was the difference between Voglin and Rondak that let you survive but fucked him? |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10368 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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I've already re-tooled dragon ancestry so that it no longer requires a Mystic, since its just a bugfix. While I was doing it I made it so that if you are outcasted you lose your spec, because they're deity-related superpowers.
For the rage bar, I already have some ideas about what I'd like to do, but please let me know what you think of this one.
* 10% skill damage bonus if the fury gauge is at least half way full
* 25% skill damage bonus if the fury gauge is full
* full fury is what activates mania, which adds attacks and maintains the 25% skill damage, but drains fury until all fury is gone
Keep in mind here I am saying SKILL damage and not ALL damage.
Also for the inevitable "why?", its because these skills generating fury could discourage using them due to the mania drawbacks. What I'd like is for a berserker to feel like trying to sit in that 50-100 range and only max out if he really wants to go bananas, because he has to work his way back up there. |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10368 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:10 am Post subject: |
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Working on this for our april patch. |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10368 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:47 am Post subject: |
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Look out if you see a berserker. That is an incredibly dangerous class at the moment.
Most of the changes discussed here were implemented but didn't make it into the game in time to go into the notes, and besides which Morgarl is helping check things anyway via actual Warlord duelling. He is raping HARD and recommending nerfs actually. Nothing that isnt quick, but its just not easy to see if its really working properly when its duels in confined spaces and his opponent has no option to just give up and run off.
I'll get you an update here in a couple days, after tweaks from warlord feedback. Then we can discuss what to do with them for July, if anything. |
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BlackWidow
Joined: 24 Apr 2014 Posts: 484 Location: Yes
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Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:03 am Post subject: |
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I'm not sure if anybody else thought about this, but the changes to berserkers make them less capable of skirmishing. This has implications like making them a potential "all or nothing" class. Skirmishing is a really important tactic for fighter classes to use against casters, and generating rage constantly until it applies itself on its own makes skirmishing less of an option than before.
Just my two cents. |
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Olyn Immortal
Joined: 23 Jul 2008 Posts: 3252 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:35 am Post subject: |
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BlackWidow, is that based on experience at 50 or a hypothetical? I haven't had trouble generating fury with a quick flee/murder approach. |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10368 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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BlackWidow, you can spec a berserker to Sarich. Doing that will literally remove the mania skill from the character. That means not having to deal with any unwanted automania. The summary of that spec is having better control about rage. If you're looking to play a "safe" skirmishing conservative berserker that's probably the way to go about it. |
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Rothak
Joined: 03 Oct 2011 Posts: 257 Location: Japan
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Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:06 am Post subject: |
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Davairus, with the Sarich spec losing mania, will infuriate be regenerated by raged missed swings, or still need mania for it? |
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BlackWidow
Joined: 24 Apr 2014 Posts: 484 Location: Yes
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Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:29 am Post subject: |
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Apparently I misunderstood the mechanics. Ignore my post. |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10368 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:35 am Post subject: |
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These are the changes (so far)
skills
* gains fury: headbutt (15) bodyslam (15) rake (15) thunderclash (15)
* drain fury: relax (100%) berserk (50% of current) lash (20) swing/devastate (20) roar
* extra skill damage + modifications to skills now occurs when berserker is at full fury
* gain life for using fury on skills
* berserk consumed fury adds to the heal, swing now hits main target as well
mania
*mania is now auto at full fury (does not apply to the sarich specced berserkers who dont get mania)
*mania state drains fury instead of hp (per round - only while actually fighting)
*mania drops off if 0 fury
*cant mania manually below 50% fury
rage (complete insanity)
*chance to autorage if generating more fury at max fury
*rage is now sated by death, even if mania active
*autorage no longer has any chance to happen just by standing around in mania
*relax is blocked by rage
We are currently considering whether stuff like alcohol and weed could sooth rage or increase the max amount and stuff like that |
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Ergorion
Joined: 16 Mar 2007 Posts: 2156
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Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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Because rage was always a dual-edged sword and auto-raging could bone you, thoughts on having other player skills potentially add fury? If I was a fire giant berserker and a tiny halfling tripped me, I'd get a little pissed. Same if I got faerie fire'd as a berserker, unless pink was my favorite colour.
So maybe some skills/spells that successfully land could add fury as well? Or is fury a good thing and would need to be drained? Whatever, the principle of the idea is third parties doing something to affect fury level. |
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Nycticora
Joined: 09 Feb 2013 Posts: 2277
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Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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>*rage is now sated by death, even if mania active
I thought letting rage persist addressed the case where if swing killed a kitten or flesh golem and popped you out of rage you could die too easily from losing all your temporary hp. Is there a different fix in place for that issue or do we need to come up with a new one?
We could make it so if you have a target you can't pop out of rage unless you kill that target. Or make it so swing attacks can't pop you out of rage. But then it would still suck if the dude fleed and you killed his kitten. The old me would have abused the shit out of that.
if someone sends you a tell while you're raged you should gain 1 fury
your skill % in relax could increase your maximum fury, or a rare item
WIS could affect max fury |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10368 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:57 am Post subject: |
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I didnt break the kitten case stuff - that stuff is working fine. Apologies if I've been confusing about that and created any distress there. |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10368 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 3:04 am Post subject: |
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If there is no further feedback this seems like a done deal. Please note it is VERY important to me that this class is fun to play, so if anything seems like a turnoff, then I would encourage post i in the thread and I will try to make an immediate fix. Its possible I've missed something. |
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Dogran Immortal
Joined: 13 Jun 2009 Posts: 1804
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Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't paid too much attention to this thread, because I had a hard time playing the new zerkers. (It's me, not them.) As Rondak, Killing other things other than my target was the source of over half my deaths. The other half were probably Kato haha. Seriously though, fights I would of won, ended in my death because I swung killed their pet, or their nightmare stalion. |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10368 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 4:35 am Post subject: |
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That still happens? I thought we did away with pets breaking rage 15 years ago. There is a special "PK rage" for that |
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Mr. Forgotten
Joined: 18 Aug 2005 Posts: 541
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Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 1:46 am Post subject: |
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Charmies are considered an extension of the character themselves, right?
Soo, attacking a charmie would trigger the pk rage, wouldnt it? |
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Nycticora
Joined: 09 Feb 2013 Posts: 2277
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Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 7:34 am Post subject: |
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I was pretty clear in my post that I thought mania causing rage to persist through kills was the fix for the kitten problem. Davairus was pretty clear that I was incorrect and there's a special "pk rage" when raging against a player which is the fix for that issue.
Are there any further questions that aren't about things that have already been very clearly answered? |
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