PK

[Monkey]

At what point does Playerkilling go from good/decent RP to just killing someone because you can and making their gaming experience less fun?

I mean we're all here to have fun right? Why should someone elses fun warrant that whoever they're constantly killing doesn't have fun. And even if it's not constant, that blood thirsty player that's really good at PvP comes in and starts PKing newer players that have no idea how to play, much less fight. Sure, you can say it's RP, but is it really? Why would an intelligent Drow Invoker or a Bloodthirsty Fire Giant Berserker bother with such a little creature that has literally nothing to offer. (No armor that's better then yours, etc.)

I mean sure PK is fun, but picking on little ones isn't very fair to them, and isn't going to make them want to stick around.

So while I'm not trying to tell anyone how to play the game, just thinking about the people behind the other screen and how you'd feel if on your third or fourth day playing someone 6 levels above you came in, killed you, took everything from your body and left you lost. Some of you may have had that happen to you in the past, which is even more reason why you should think twice for PKing without a reason.

[Louis]

although its always important that pk'ing is accompanied by an rp reasoning behind it, pk is a completely separate concept from rp. also, everyone is well aware that pk'ing someone else detracts from their experience somewhat but it also adds to your experience (you have fun at the other person's expense and that's what drives the competition to get better). also, dying doesn't always detract from one's experience, especially when they learn something out of it (learn how to run or learn from their mistakes).

[Monkey]

[Hrash]

There's a problem with that. No one really has a big "I'm a newbie" sign on their back. Therefore, people are going to pk you. Besides, is it fair that a newbie somehow looted a level 50 and carries around really good eq without being a target? Everyone has an equal chance to die...just that some people have stayed around for a longer time and know more about the pk system. This is a competitive game. In any online game, from quake 3 to unreal tournament, the newbies get picked off easily. Eventually, they learn stuff like strafing to resetting their mouse sensitivity to match their preferences. It's the exact same way in AR. Granted it's much more annoying to gain eq than to gaina new rocket launcher, that's just the way it is.

[Sebryn]

That's what the new "outfit" command is for.

[Monkey]

This is all true. However, the newbies that get picked off easily in text games usually don't come back. There's a million free text games out there that they won't get picked off easily, and generally when you get picked off real early in the game, you haven't had the time to really get into it.

Now if anyone's reply is "Well then let them go we don't need their kind around here." Well, please think about what you're planning on saying. With those types of thoughts, there will never be any new blood, the game will never grow - in fact, it will probably shrink. All the coding and features in the world aren't enough if every time you log in you have to go hunting for a new set of decent equipment. You can play the devil's advocate until one is blue in the face, it won't change the fact that killing off newbies will do just that, removing them slowly from the game until there's 5 players who have been playing for 5 years left. How fun will that be?

Games like Imperian, as flawed as they are, have rules to protect newbies and for that matter other players. At the end of the day, when you log in, all you want to do is have fun, in whatever way you please. Just remember that so does everyone else.

[Sebryn]

(* This post isn't addressed solely to Monkey, but to the vast majority of NEW players that get frustrated with the game when they're starting out. *)

For starters, I believe that (especially with new players) there's too much focus on "good equipment." In this thread and others, in complaints from players in-game, and all across the board, the emphasis is on equipment, equipment, equipment. Part of that problem is that most semi-veteran players (and up) are used to the monotonous process of ranking/gathering equipment, that they "assume" that every other person they come in contact with should know the same things - to start looking for goblin armor, worn steel, opal rings, enchanted leather bracers, etc. - right off the bat.

That's not the case, unfortunately, especially with the constant influx of "new players." There are a lot more "new players" coming in than I think the majority of the playerbase realizes, and when those players' characters are greeted by someone that knows their way around the game somewhat, it can be a bit intimidating. The "vet" looks at the nearly-naked new guy and thinks "but he doesn't even have combat armor!!" and dismisses him as a potential groupmate. While it's not necessarily any one player's "job" to babysit new players and hold their hand until they get better acquainted with the game, it is a fact of life if we want the game to grow.

Players, especially the new ones, should be driven more toward exploring the game and learning the combat system - even moreso now with all of the recent changes. Even 'seasoned' players are having to "re-learn" a few things, with the changes being implemented and made to the combat styles, weapon type, racial stats, etc., not to mention a whole slew of skill redistributions (clobber, uncanny attacks, sidestep, etc.). "Combat" is the most basic element of AR, if you can boil it down to that. Yes, the game is regulated for RP and has several aspects that are solely roleplay-related (Heralds, reputations, quests, etc.) but the fact remains that AR is a player-killing mud before all else.

- Don't focus on equipment early-on. That's what "outfit" and the random equipment is for.
- DO focus on learning areas and how to fight (or flee).
- Don't think you're going to come in with your first character and "pwn"... that's unrealistic.
- DO keep a desire to learn more about the game.
- Don't get pissed off if you get killed... even if it happens repeatedly. That's part of the learning curve.
- DO try and figure out what you're doing wrong, and learn from it.

Once you've learned how to fight (or run) and when/where, then you can start worrying about equipment and improving yourself. Your main focus should be to learn how to do things on your own in the game, and while going through that you'll learn where to find useful items (potions, scrolls, staves, wands, etc.), as well as learning the locations of that oh-so-sought-after "equipment" (armor, weapons, etc.). Just don't put so much weight on it for right now, when there are so many other things in the game that should be getting your attention first.

[Monkey]

Excellent post Sebryn. Though I can't say I agree with every ounce of it, still excellent post.

[Davairus]

What if "who group" and "consider" couldnt be used to easily see the opposite alignment players?

Spells like detect evil and detect good would matter.
Evils would be grouping with unsuspecting goods to exploit them.
Goods that can't detect evil would be judging people by what they do instead (i.e. acting evil).
Only the extreme cases, where your class gives you away as evil, would a simple "him evil me good" suffice.

You can have all of that besides the grouping, if you ignore these OOC commands.

[Monkey]

Well this is the 5th time this week I've had to get all new equipment because some kind person killed me for no reason and looted my entire corpse. Their reason? Absolutely none. And about the 7th or 8th time I've been attacked/killed for the same reason. I won't be returning to this game.

[Davairus]

Good job guys..

[jaran]

You have my sympathy Monkey, I hate to see full loots happen - personally I dont do it.... you've just been unlucky in being targetted by a few of the bits of trash that are around.

Its stuff like that that stop new guys from sticking around.

Can I ask what rank all this was happening at?

[Sebryn]

Monkey - don't let a crappy experience like this turn you off to the game as a whole. There's a lot more to be enjoyed than a few deaths to some jerk will take away from you.

As for the rest of the players: you've gotta watch out for this kind of stuff if you guys really want the playerbase to grow. At the very least, roleplay the kills or give some kind of reason... don't just go "hmm, I'm a lowbie trash pker, and I'm gonna clean out my pk range." Not cool.

My condolences to Monkey and anybody else that's experienc(ed)/(ing) this kind of behavior.

[Davairus]

80%+ of the lowbie (below lvl 40, and far below 40) pks are:

1) pip
2) pips friends
3) the usual retards, bucky and baer etc

Just so you guys know who to pk for making newbies feel unwelcome and quit mud.

[Ace High]

[Louis]

you'll notice some newbies will go "i won't come back to this mud" because of feeling like crap because they died several times at low ranks.

but then you'll also notice others will go "i need to learn how to kill like that." when i started AR, it was basically hack and slash at rank 30 with little rp behind it. still, it was enough to hook me.

whatever stage you are in mudding, you will always feel like crap when you die. i don't know to what lengths you took to rp interact with those guys that killed you, but i'm just saying, you need to look past that at 30. yes we have issues with people not roleplaying well enough at low ranks but the mud does shine in rp in other places, and when it shines its really awesome.

if you feel you have repeatedly and unfairly been taken advantage of, you need to go through the proper motions of getting the attention of the Immortal staff with your valid complaint (using Complaint to Immortal). if you decide to leave without properly addressing your complaint, i really can't sympathize with you because first of all, we don't have a way of even validating your complaint.

[Hrash]

I suggest maybe create an explorer class for newbies to play? One that can't be pked or pk and can't touch rares. Maybe have survival skills like word of recall, sanc, cure critical, etc.

[LABruinCub]

It's unfortunate to see Monkey go or any newbie for that matter.

The issue goes beyond the @$$hole lowbie pking ego-driven players tho, although I hate lowbie pking enough that I have almost never pked until I reached 50 (before that, what are you really proving?). This mud is really, really newbie-unfriendly, and it has nothing to do with the IMM staff, but the theme of the mud itself. It's pro-PK theme creates a learning curve that is probably the steepest in any mud, especially when you can do things like full loot a corpse and sac the rest of the eq. Although I know the IMM staff is trying to address this issue, because they already know its been a glaring problem, pro-PK and newbie friendly cannot coexist... like Louis said, your joy is their pain, it's a zero-sum game...

And this is really unfortunate too, because this mud has been the MOST balanced, sophisticated and well-developed mud I have ever played, yet it takes a lot of dedication to learn and play. A good analogy would be like comparing Marvel vs. Capcom 2 (an overall shitty game that was completely unbalance and had absolutely NO depth to gameplay) to SF3 Third Strike (the best, most balance, and most in-depth 2D fighting game ever... it was absolutely beautiful the multiple techniques you can use with ANY character). MvC, everyone loved. SF3, only the few hardcore 2D fighters played. And it's exactly the same reason, MvC was instant gratification, while SF3 had the highest learning curve of any 2D fighting game. But the payoff is equally great. MvC pros have lost to button mashers, because the game inherently sucks. SF3 vets will repeatedly destroy SF3 newbies. When a game allows the only the best players to win CONSISTENTLY, you know that game is balanced and well-thought out, the way it should be. This is AR (I hope you realize AR is like SF3, if not... uh...dumb@$$) versus every other mud out there. MvC is still played. SF3 has faded into oblivion. And sadly, it's for the same reason, a balanced game involves a steep learning curve, one that casual players will never be dedicated enough to hop on.

I'm not saying that the pbase will never increase, but I believe that in this day and age, when there's a lot more of those instant gratification games out there, only the few hardcore mudders, those who will want something beyond "just fun" will be sticking around... and of course it will be those same mudders who will be pking everyone around 30-40 thinking they are l33t, lol.

I remember when AR was less regulated and completely unbalanced. It was also during the time it'd logged like 100-150 people. Back then, it was "just fun." You'd log on with 10 other ooc friends and go around acting stupid. There was no depth, not really any RP, but damn it was fun. You'd also die all the time, but you had your ooc friends to help you get back on your feet. Nowadays, if you're a newbie and you die, it's overs! lol, it feels a lot harder to bounce back, especially when the l33ts know other people ooc and you... well, you would get the old "just live and learn," to which if I was in Monkey's position, I'd do the same thing, I'd say nah, I'll play WoW or something else. That's just the way it is.

Right now, AR is heading towards SF3. Everyday, AR is becoming more and more balanced and probably one of the best muds ever. But at the same time, it won't be "just fun." It won't be something like MvC, but hey, I hated MvC anyways.

[Hamp]

Would like to know why people even pk below rank 35? I myself don't unless it's a total jack off that won't leave my ranking area no matter what even if I will help him find way out. Get pk'd, or someone trying to pk me. Other than that theirs no reason for it. I've played for years but lately I can't play a new char because I'm deleting because some trash fuck is in my range and kills me over and over. Just stupidity and I would guess that and advertisement is the reasons our pbase is so low. Who ever is doing it needs to stop.

[pip]

Awww...Dav, you remembered me! I missed you too.