Big battle part 2 - revenge

1. Cadarel Big battle part 2 - revenge -
   You have other spells by the way. I'll admit I'm not sure if it was on purpose or not but having permontar fight without weapon ward and then fleeing when I try a manuever was actually very effective for you to keep me in combat long enough for you to get a hellstream or two. I could be giving you too much credit though.
2. squeeeee Big battle part 2 - revenge -
   its the same way people assume kick is worthless on low str races as opposed to a giant kicking.
   
   people just like seeing large block letters telling them how much they melt face.
   
   realistically, you'd go for a different spell for higher dps, like flame arrow. even fireball is better than flame arrow, and both exceed hellstream in two departments, dps, and lag time of 1.0 comopared to hellstreams 1.5.
   
   vital half seconds when you consider what an enemy could do to totally bone you in that extra amount of face time you're giving them, particularly fighter classes.
3. Cadarel Big battle part 2 - revenge -
   That's true, granted in large group battles like this its a lot harder to pay attention to spells falling etc. Making the role of the priest class a bit more difficult. When he does have that large a group to back him hellstream might be more worthwhile because the instantaneous damage could prevent them from escaping. Especially since he wasn't the main target in the last.
   
   Permontar I wouldn't really bother with weaken unless it is a low strength race or they're wielding a heavy weapon, I felt like it was a waste of your time and energy casting it on me (and maakdool in this case) every battle due to my armor which grants five strength so it literally had no effect on me. Since you were obviously winning the battle it didn't matter this time. Just something to keep in mind.
4. erlwith Big battle part 2 - revenge -
   I'm sorry.... what? Did you just say flame arrow grants higher dps than hellstream? I want to see logs to prove it. You want dps without the 1.5 lag time? Use chain lightning. Please don't run around casting flame arrow unless you're level 30.
   
   And lag time is part of DPS, damage per second. Damage verse the time it takes to cast the spell.
   
   Maybe I just completely misunderstood the point you were going for, though.
5. squeeeee Big battle part 2 - revenge -
   <597hp 760m 357mv> You bow your head as you call forth the full power of the arcane.
   The ground erupts as Maakdool is caught in a searing beam of arcane light.
   Your hellstream MUTILATES Maakdool!
   Maakdool has quite a few wounds.
   
   <597hp 715m 357mv>
   Permontar's flame mauls Maakdool.
   Permontar's flame mauls Maakdool.
   Maakdool's flesh is seared by the flames from a demon's tongue.
   Permontar's flaming bite scratches Maakdool.
   Maakdool has some big nasty wounds and scratches.
   
   <597hp 715m 357mv> c 'hellstream'
   
   Maakdool gets a wild look in his eyes.
   Maakdool's luminous punch DISMEMBERS you!
   Maakdool's luminous punch MASSACRES Permontar!
   Maakdool's luminous punch DISMEMBERS Quar!
   Maakdool has quite a few wounds.
   
   <534hp 715m 357mv>
   Your pain mauls Maakdool.
   Your pain wounds Maakdool.
   Quar's crush devastates Maakdool!
   Permontar's flame wounds Maakdool.
   Permontar's flame misses Maakdool.
   Maakdool's flesh is seared by the flames from a demon's tongue.
   Permontar's flaming bite scratches Maakdool.
   You parry Maakdool's luminous punch.
   Maakdool has quite a few wounds.
   
   <534hp 715m 357mv>
   Permontar narrows his eyes.
   Maakdool looks tired and weak.
   Maakdool has quite a few wounds.
   
   <534hp 715m 357mv> You bow your head as you call forth the full power of the arcane.
   The ground erupts as Maakdool is caught in a searing beam of arcane light.
   Your hellstream MANGLES Maakdool!
   Maakdool has some big nasty wounds and scratches.
   
   
   mutilate and mangle. you can get the same damage from a flame arrow. Yes, hellstream has a higher avg and larger max damage, but it also lags for 1.5 seconds vs flame arrow 1.0 seconds. fireball is 1.0 seconds too, can potentially do more damage than flame arrow, and is AOE as well.
   
   
   Usually Cadarel, people will balance their stats so as to get the most out of them, so if you didn't have that 5 extra strength you wouldve been 5 less, thus greatly reducing parry and damroll, as well as str related skills.
   
   In this case, you may have unintentionally geared for it, but you perfectly countered the weaken spell, which can be far more disruptive used on the proper enemy.
   
   erlwith, im glad you do actually understand the definition of dps.
6. Cadarel Big battle part 2 - revenge -
   Noted, I'll make sure to never swap out for different armor then.
   
   It's the same concept with wow, two handed weapons are generally slower but deal a lot more damage. Vs. Rogue dual wielding, more attacks slightly less damage but at a longer interval rogue will do better damage. So if you can afford to do more damage at once (at a greater mana cost) then go for it, if not your better off using a different spell.
7. kalist Big battle part 2 - revenge -
   Hellstream > Flame arrow
   
   How could you possible think otherwise? Hellstream is even better than icicle on a firegiant and icicle is comparable to flame arrow.
   
   Thanks for posting this log, it was a really fun read.
8. squeeeee Big battle part 2 - revenge -
   well, if you have that +5 armor, and lots of mal save, you can swap that 5 strength for some more damage instead. If you dont have much mal save, and that +5 str armor gives you damage and hit as well, then keeping it on will at least protect you from weaken, though not from curse, plague, blind, vamp touch, energy drain, etc.
   
   Kalist, its because hellstream, like fireball, has an extremely wide damage range. True, it is the best spell in the game for maximum potential volley damage, however, in a real combat situation, the wide range, high mana cost, and longer lag time means that it's far more useful when either sanc has dropped or someone is limping away and you want to drop them next hit. (hint: invokers get dispel magic, so they can drop someone's sanc).
   
   flame arrow and icicle have a narrower damage range, with their high end comparable to hellstreams upper damage range, though obviously not near the max damage of it.
   
   also, I would use ice storm on a fire giant instead of icicle, if the room permitted it being empty and such.
   
   you'll notice in this log a hellstream mutilate and mangle. thats 3 seconds of lag for those values. in that same time you could flame arrow for mutilates to mangles 3 times, which means 150% more damage. are you opposed to that? Now considering from a mana perspective, thats 45 mana for 150% more damage, or 70 mana for 66% of the damage you could have dealt in that same time.
   
   its your choice, but spamming hellstream has its shortcomings which a good player will quickly learn to adapt to and turn the tables. Its simply that the lack of invokers have kept people from understanding how to fight them, which is their current advantage but won't remain that way for long.
9. rekkakun Big battle part 2 - revenge -
   For your info, hellstream demolishes through sanc at times. It is not uncommon. It's rare for hellstream to hit MUTILATE. Dwarf warrior with 24 affliction saves gets hit MASSACRES most of the time with occassional demolish. I dont think icicle can reach up to hellstream's damage. Even against Firegiants. That's my opinion thuogh. If you talk about mana conservation, usually an invoker dies before his mana reaches 0 while fighting warrior classes, unless it's magical weapon against mana shield.
10. squeeeee Big battle part 2 - revenge -
    yes, this log shows what you say, but it also shows two low damage hits for a hellstream one after the other.
    
    this game works on randomization, and the range of damage is much bigger on hellstream, therefor its possibly the most mana inefficient weapon for killing with.
    
    now, would you rather have 2 demolishes or 3 DISEMBOWELS in the same space of time, with the added benefit of being able to flee or use another command in 1.0 instead of 1.5 seconds, as well as preserving mana, since sanc is pretty mana draining?
    
    you have your opinion so I guess thats that.
11. rezakhan Big battle part 2 - revenge -
    Hey champ, your logic is off throughout all your posts.
    In this last one, you say 'would you rather have 2 demolishes or 3 DISEMBOWELS in the same space of time, with the added benefit of being able to flee or use another command in 1.0 instead of 1.5 seconds'.
    However, you don't have 3 disembowels AND the benefit of being able to use another command in 1.0 seconds. You either have 3 disembowels in this hypothetical span of time, or you have 1 disembowel and the chance to flee in 1.0 seconds.
    In your previous post, you say its 150% more damage to get 3 flame arrows with 'mutilates to mangles' damage off instead of 2 hellstreams for a mangle and a mutilate. Again, your logic is off--it's only 150% more damage if all of those 3 fire arrows fall on the high end of your damage range. To say its 150% more damage would mean that each fire arrow would track each hellstrem in damage (mutilate to mutilate, etc.), and then an additional fire arrow to give you the additional 50% you name. Anyone who has played this game however knows it is unlikely that fire arrow damage would track hellstream damage. Far more likely that you would get 3 mutilates, or 2 mutilates and maybe a disembowel, which may or may not be more damage that one mutilate and one mangle.
12. squeeeee Big battle part 2 - revenge -
    
    as I said before, you can hold whatever opinion you want, regardless of whether its correct or not. ;)
13. rezakhan Big battle part 2 - revenge -
    Well, if you stated that all this was just your 'opinion', then I wouldn't have felt the need to respond.
    But you started this chain of responses by making a factual assertion (flame arrow is higher dps than hellstream), not an opinion statement, which was based on faulty logic.
    If you want to step back from that, and say that it is just your opinion that flame arrow is superior, then have at it. To each his own.
14. squeeeee Big battle part 2 - revenge -
    because it is factual.
    
    yours is faulty logic actually.
    
    in your example, hellstream is following its average damage range, which happens to be the upper range of flame arrow, not flame arrow is following hellstreams high range. thats just stupid to even say. but you can have your opinion, as I said ;)
15. kalist Big battle part 2 - revenge -
    I'm not sure where you're getting your figures from squeeee but from my experience playing an invoker and fighting against invokers, I would say absolutely hellstream does more DPS. You are spending more mana, but it is definately worth it. This is not to say that hellstream is the end-all and be-all of spells - the other ones have their uses, but if you are just going all out head-on damage, go hellstream. Besides, even if you don't kill the other guy you might nuke some of his eq :p
16. kalist Big battle part 2 - revenge -
    P.S. Does flame arrow mangle through sanc? Seriously? Consistently? That sounds like baloney to me.
17. squeeeee Big battle part 2 - revenge -
    google scientific method. it will help you figure it out on your own. one cant prove anything but allow others to find out for themselves.
    
    you get more capital damage, but at .5 greater lag.
    
    those .5 seconds could mean dirt in the eyes if your prot shield drops and you are .5 seconds too late to flee when bam, theres sand in your face.
    
    and yes, flame arrow is reliable for good damage, but you also have fireball, ice and lightning storm, which are even better, same casting time, and AOE.
18. squeeeee Big battle part 2 - revenge -
    oh its Bologna. yes the pronunciation of it is amusing.
19. kalist Big battle part 2 - revenge -
    Why would I waste time testing your hypothesis when I already know from personal experience that it is false? Oh wait, I wouldn't waste my time. You have your opinion, and you are entitled to it. It is, however, wrong. Good luck with your flame arrows though. They might even be worth casting if a treant race with a weakness to fire is ever made. Unless of course flame arrow on a fire vulnerability does the same damage as icicle on an ice vulnerability....if they do wind up being comparable, then hellstream is still the best choice.
    
    Oh and if that .5 seconds of greater lag costs you getting dirt kicked because your protective shield fell....well you deserve to die because your an idiot going into combat with such a low duration on your protective shield in the first place.
20. squeeeee Big battle part 2 - revenge -
    as you say ;), gl killing with invokers.