JUSTICE Eloret vs LEGION Kragnar

1. oreno JUSTICE Eloret vs LEGION Kragnar -
   what is interesting about this fight comparing it to the elf invoker fight is probably the damage done. Eloret is hitting just as hard as Kragnar and Krag is using a vuln weapon. The obvious difference is probably the hp difference from a gnome to an elf, since you get 5 pracs right and you have more con anyway.
   
   But the biggest difference is Krag didn't murder flee, he used wild weapons which damage him from justice shield rebuke. With Krag getting 2 or 3 hits per round, fight may have gone differently if he initiated, instead of eating icicle after icicle.
   
   But thats the point for RNG, flee if its not going your way and resume again, don't just sit there and die.
2. caidolese JUSTICE Eloret vs LEGION Kragnar -
   How is it on average that the blunt vuln is doing less damage over all than the iron vuln is on an elf? let me guess... rng. at least I have multiple vets backing the facts.
   
   also, love that gnome health with warrior eq. man thats stout.
3. sifor JUSTICE Eloret vs LEGION Kragnar -
   Clearly he's moving... so this isn't the case, but why is he fighting like he's linkdead?
4. Kapruski JUSTICE Eloret vs LEGION Kragnar -
   Mmm bandwidth owned.
5. kragnar JUSTICE Eloret vs LEGION Kragnar -
   Naw all ive been fighting is healers so i was trying to get in the first couple rounds berserked. Efore i got the calm that wasnt coming. I was actually caught off guard i was more trying to figure out a blunt weapon that i was holding that wasnt wild and going to rebuke pwn me than i was watching the dmg... Definately not my best performance
6. kragnar JUSTICE Eloret vs LEGION Kragnar -
   By the berserk thing i actually lagged myself with theee faiked berserks when i dd berserk thatwas qhen i got cntrl back
7. Kapruski JUSTICE Eloret vs LEGION Kragnar -
   gnome blunt vuln did get a pretty noticeable damage reduction when all the vuln changes went through a while ago.
   
   I don't think anyone ever said the RNG was the issue with the damge, mainly that the RNG is responsible for him getting so many high damage hits in that you don't block.
   
   
8. morgit JUSTICE Eloret vs LEGION Kragnar -
   I would imagine his blunt weapon is low attack, high defense? Mace maybe.
   
   Also, Eloret used an enchanted icy blue dagger here it looks like. If you choose to use a low defense weapon against a fire giant as an invoker, thats what to use. Plus his gear is pimped.
9. Kapruski JUSTICE Eloret vs LEGION Kragnar -
   the attack/defense values of weapons have nothing to do with damage cause, only matters in terms of parrying. before combat modules, davarus or some other imm basically said that if anyone was using anything other than mace to fight with they were fooling themselves.
   
   
10. morgit JUSTICE Eloret vs LEGION Kragnar -
    my understanding was that high attack weapons increase the chance of bypassing parry, and high defense weapons increase the chance of succefully parrying. Invokers don't dodge, so when I see rounds like this:
    
    (aggressive)(411hp 747mp 394mv 38692gold)
    Your freezing bite DISEMBOWELS Kragnar!
    Your freezing bite DISEMBOWELS Kragnar!
    Kragnar's smash MUTILATES you!
    [***] You parry Kragnar's smash.
    [* ] You parry Kragnar's smash.
    Your ice shield DISMEMBERS Kragnar!
    Kragnar is in awful condition
    
    Vs rounds like this:
    
    <441/966hp 186/347m 174/444mv 5101gp no opponent no opponent aggressive> Caidolese yells 'Help! I am being attacked by Rothak!'
    Your slice DISMEMBERS Caidolese!
    Your slice DISEMBOWELS Caidolese!
    Your slice DISMEMBERS Caidolese!
    Your slice DISEMBOWELS Caidolese!
    Your slice DISEMBOWELS Caidolese!
    Your slice DISMEMBERS Caidolese!
    Caidolese's ice shield decimates you!
    Caidolese is in awful condition.
    
    I think weapon type difference has something to do with it. Granted, Rothak's per hit damage appears higher, but his gear is also better than Kragnars, and Kragnar did hit a dismember through sanc in this log.
    
    If I'm wrong about this stuff, let me know. Thats good info to have.
11. Kapruski JUSTICE Eloret vs LEGION Kragnar -
    Well those are two different perspective rounds. Also, ROTHAK uses a slice weapon in the other round while KRAGNAR using a smash weapon in the first one. One is completely decked at all times, the other is not.
    
    Weapon type only makes a difference in parry chance vs to-parry chance. hitroll makes a difference in parry chance and dodge chance. strength makes a difference in parry chance.
    
    Weapon average also plays into it. Remember when we talked about RNG. The less rolls a weapon has, the more it's damage will be all over the place.
    
    if you have 1 dice and it rolls for 12 sides, thats called 1d12 and it has 1 to 12 damage, with 6 being the average.
    
    if you have 4 dice and they are 6 sides, you have 4d6, with less dice, you have a higher chance of getting max damage than with more dice.
    
    if you have 6d4, the max is the same, but the amount of rolls means the total will be closer to the average, on average, and it will be more rare to get extremes of high or low damage without good or bad rolls/luck.
    
    the more dice you have, on your weapon, the more stable your damage is per hit. So from the example, we can conclude that Rothaks weapon is very stable and reflecting his decked status, while kragnar's weapon is more unstable, and from a glance it looks like he would do mutilate->disembowel with a more consistent weapon.
    
12. Narcana JUSTICE Eloret vs LEGION Kragnar -
    @ Kapruski's last message:
    
    the actual average of 1d12 is 6.5 and not 6. We can't roll that on any given roll, but the average is still 6.5. I have learned some methods of determining the average roll of almost any number of dice. (I've studied probability a fair bit, and have an interest in dice from Monopoly and AD&D.)
    
    An odd number of odd-sided dice is simple. Say, 5d5.
    
    The midpoint of 1 and 5 is 3. Multiply that by five and the average is 15. Simple enough.
    
    Now, take an even number of odd sided dice. Let's make it 6d5.
    
    Again, the midpoint is 3. 6x3 = 18, so it's again easy to calculate.
    
    Now, an even number of even sided dice is also fairly easy to calculate. Say, 6d6. The average of 2d6 (which I figured out after playing Monopoly for so long and reading up on it) is 7. 6/2=3. 3x7 = 21.
    
    An odd number of even sided dice inevitably results in an average ending in .5 . Multiply any odd number of dice by 2, find the average, and divide by 2. The answer invariably has a remainder of 5.
    
    That said, some of the best weapons are those with a high number of small sided dice. The Sword of the Seasons is 25d1, and has a high hit/dam bonus. The ice staff is nice not just because of the average (which is definitely a key point), the fact that it is an ice attack (again a very nice factor), but also because it has a very stable damage output and high minimum (anywhere from 11 to 33 total, average of 22, dice being 11d3).
    
    And yes, weapon average makes a big difference.
13. Kapruski JUSTICE Eloret vs LEGION Kragnar -
    The arithmetic mean of a normal fair die is 6.5. Its geometric average is about 6.
14. ninza JUSTICE Eloret vs LEGION Kragnar -
    big props to eloret for spamming icicle.. should spam hellstream like all the invokers.. you dont have to think about tactis just spam friggin hellstream.. ahaha
15. Kapruski JUSTICE Eloret vs LEGION Kragnar -
    what else do u do as an invoker ninza? They have no mals. They have some fallback on huge damroll RNG winning, but other than that they have remove sanc and damage damage damage.