Another log of Thalandir kicking ass. This time perhaps even more thoroughly.
You yell 'Begin.'
<908hp 303m 450mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 8am (day) calm>
A Nameless Road
[Exits: north east south]
<908hp 303m 448mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 8am (day) calm>
where
Players near you in The Seringale Arena:
<PK> Thalandir Entrance to the Mine Shaft
<PK> Thoom A Nameless Road
<908hp 303m 448mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 8am (day) calm>
n
A Nameless Road
[Exits: north east south west]
<908hp 303m 446mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 8am (day) calm>
n
An Intersection of Two Nameless Roads
[Exits: north east south west (up)]
<908hp 303m 444mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 8am (day) calm>
sca
You scan all around.
You scan north.
You scan east.
*** Range 4 (east) ***
(White Aura) Thalandir is here.
You scan south.
You scan west.
You scan up.
<908hp 303m 444mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 8am (day) calm>
where
Players near you in The Seringale Arena:
<PK> Thalandir The Overgrown Path
<PK> Thoom An Intersection of Two Nameless Roads
<908hp 303m 444mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 8am (day) calm>
sca
kk
Thalandir spins in and attacks with a flourish.
Thalandir's lightning charge DISMEMBERS you!
You scan all around.
You scan north.
You scan east.
You scan south.
You scan west.
You scan up.
Thalandir is in excellent condition.
<846hp 303m 444mv 6912gold shaft dual_wield ground 8am (day) calm>
You do the best you can!
Thalandir is in excellent condition.
<846hp 303m 444mv 6912gold shaft dual_wield ground 8am (day) calm>
fl
You flee from combat!
A Nameless Road
[Exits: east west]
<846hp 303m 442mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 8am (day) evasive>
w
An Intersection of Two Nameless Roads
[Exits: north east south west (up)]
(White Aura) Thalandir is here.
<846hp 303m 440mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 8am (day) evasive>
kk
Thalandir feints and ducks under your attack.
Your attack hits nothing but air as Thalandir steps aside.
Your attack hits nothing but air as Thalandir steps aside.
Thalandir turns your attack aside with a nimble feint.
Thalandir's wrath MASSACRES you!
Thalandir is in excellent condition.
<779hp 303m 440mv 6912gold shaft dual_wield ground 8am (day) aggressive>
fl
Thalandir's condemn DISMEMBERS you!
You have been condemned.
Thalandir is in excellent condition.
<714hp 303m 440mv 6912gold shaft dual_wield ground 8am (day) aggressive>
Thalandir feints and ducks under your attack.
Thalandir feints and ducks under your attack.
You parry Thalandir's wrath.
Thalandir's wrath MASSACRES you!
Thalandir is in excellent condition.
<638hp 303m 440mv 6912gold shaft dual_wield ground 8am (day) aggressive>
You flee from combat!
A Nameless Road
[Exits: north east west]
<638hp 303m 438mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 8am (day) aggressive>
fl
You aren't fighting anyone.
<638hp 303m 438mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 8am (day) aggressive>
w
Entrance to Gnome Village
[Exits: east]
<638hp 303m 436mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 8am (day) aggressive>
e
e
A Nameless Road
[Exits: north east west]
<638hp 303m 434mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 8am (day) aggressive>
e
e
An Intersection of Two Nameless Roads
[Exits: north east south west (up)]
(White Aura) Thalandir is here.
<638hp 303m 432mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 8am (day) aggressive>
e
A Nameless Road
[Exits: east west]
<638hp 303m 430mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 8am (day) aggressive>
44
A Path on the Outskirts
[Exits: north east south west]
<638hp 303m 428mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 8am (day) aggressive>
The Overgrown Path
[Exits: east west]
<652hp 308m 450mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
You stop wielding 'Leese-Breaker', the Demolition Axe of the Barbarian.
You wield the Flail of Eternity.
The Flail of Eternity feels like a part of you!
<652hp 308m 450mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
You stop wielding the Eviscerator.
You tighten your grip around the Flail of Eternity.
<652hp 308m 450mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
sca
kk
You scan all around.
You scan east.
You scan west.
*** Range 1 (west) ***
(White Aura) Thalandir is here.
<652hp 308m 450mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
They aren't here.
<652hp 308m 450mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
kk
They aren't here.
<652hp 308m 450mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
kk
sca
Your beating maims Thalandir!
You feel less condemned.
Your beating maims Thalandir!
You block Thalandir's attack and attempt to strike at the brief opening.
Your riposte devastates Thalandir!
Thalandir's wrath MUTILATES you!
You manage to dodge Thalandir's wrath with a lot of effort.
You manage to dodge Thalandir's wrath with a lot of effort.
Thalandir has some small wounds and bruises.
<613hp 308m 450mv 6912gold shaft dual_wield ground 9am (day) aggressive>
Your beating DISEMBOWELS Thalandir!
Your beating DISEMBOWELS Thalandir!
Your beating MUTILATES Thalandir!
Thalandir awkwardly parries your beating with a loud clang.
Thalandir's wrath DISEMBOWELS you!
Thalandir has quite a few wounds.
<563hp 308m 450mv 6912gold shaft dual_wield ground 9am (day) aggressive>
You scan all around.
You scan east.
You scan west.
Thalandir has quite a few wounds.
<563hp 308m 450mv 6912gold shaft dual_wield ground 9am (day) aggressive>
Thalandir stops wielding a golden short sword.
Thalandir has quite a few wounds.
<563hp 308m 450mv 6912gold shaft dual_wield ground 9am (day) aggressive>
Thalandir wears a faded kite shield as a shield.
Thalandir has quite a few wounds.
<563hp 308m 450mv 6912gold shaft defensive ground 9am (day) aggressive>
fl
You flee from combat!
The Clearing
[Exits: west down]
<563hp 308m 448mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
w
w
The Overgrown Path
[Exits: east west]
(White Aura) Thalandir is here.
<563hp 308m 446mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
22
A Path on the Outskirts
[Exits: north east south west]
(White Aura) Thalandir is here.
<563hp 308m 444mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
You stop wielding the Flail of Eternity.
You wield 'Leese-Breaker', the Demolition Axe of the Barbarian.
'Leese-Breaker', the Demolition Axe of the Barbarian feels like a part of you!
<563hp 308m 444mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
You wield the Eviscerator in your off-hand.
The Eviscerator feels like a part of you!
<563hp 308m 444mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
kk
They aren't here.
<563hp 308m 444mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
sca
kk
You scan all around.
You scan north.
You scan east.
You scan south.
You scan west.
<563hp 308m 444mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
kk
You parry Thalandir's wrath.
Thalandir's wrath DISMEMBERS you!
You parry Thalandir's wrath with a hasty swing from your off-hand weapon.
Thalandir turns your attack aside with a nimble feint.
Thalandir feints and ducks under your attack.
Thalandir's wrath MASSACRES you!
Thalandir has quite a few wounds.
<422hp 308m 444mv 6912gold shaft dual_wield ground 9am (day) aggressive>
You do the best you can!
Thalandir has quite a few wounds.
<422hp 308m 444mv 6912gold shaft dual_wield ground 9am (day) aggressive>
You do the best you can!
Thalandir has quite a few wounds.
<422hp 308m 444mv 6912gold shaft dual_wield ground 9am (day) aggressive>
fl
You flee from combat!
A Nameless Road
[Exits: east west]
<422hp 308m 442mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
w
An Intersection of Two Nameless Roads
[Exits: north east south west (up)]
<422hp 308m 440mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
s
A Nameless Road
[Exits: north east south west]
<422hp 308m 438mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
s
A Nameless Road
[Exits: north east south]
<422hp 308m 436mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
s
Path by a Stream
[Exits: north south west]
<422hp 308m 434mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
33
You do not have that item.
<422hp 308m 434mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
You stop wielding the Eviscerator.
You tighten your grip around 'Leese-Breaker', the Demolition Axe of the Barbarian.
<422hp 308m 434mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
n
sca
A Nameless Road
[Exits: north east south]
<422hp 308m 432mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
You scan all around.
You scan north.
*** Range 1 (north) ***
(White Aura) Thalandir is here.
You scan east.
You scan south.
<422hp 308m 432mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
kk
kk
Your cleave MUTILATES Thalandir!
Thalandir has quite a few wounds.
<422hp 308m 432mv 6912gold shaft defensive ground 9am (day) aggressive>
kk
Thalandir blocks your attack with his shield.
Your cleave MUTILATES Thalandir!
You deflect Thalandir's wrath aside in an ungraceful parry.
You parry Thalandir's wrath.
Thalandir's wrath DISEMBOWELS you!
Thalandir has quite a few wounds.
<371hp 308m 432mv 6912gold shaft defensive ground 9am (day) aggressive>
fl
22
Thalandir's condemn DISEMBOWELS you!
You have been condemned.
Thalandir has quite a few wounds.
<326hp 308m 432mv 6912gold shaft defensive ground 9am (day) aggressive>
You do the best you can!
Your wild chop MASSACRES Thalandir!
You stumble and barely manage to dodge Thalandir's wrath.
Thalandir's wrath DISMEMBERS you!
Thalandir has quite a few wounds.
<262hp 308m 432mv 6912gold shaft defensive ground 9am (day) aggressive>
You do the best you can!
Thalandir has quite a few wounds.
<262hp 308m 432mv 6912gold shaft defensive ground 9am (day) aggressive>
You flee from combat!
Path by a Stream
[Exits: north south west]
<262hp 308m 430mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
s
You do not have that item.
<262hp 308m 430mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
You relax your grip on your weapon.
You wield the Eviscerator in your off-hand.
The Eviscerator feels like a part of you!
<262hp 308m 430mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
n
At the stream's end
[Exits: north east west]
<262hp 308m 427mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
n
kk
Path by a Stream
[Exits: north south west]
<262hp 308m 424mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 9am (day) aggressive>
A Nameless Road
[Exits: north east south]
(White Aura) Thalandir is here.
<285hp 315m 448mv 6912gold no opponent no opponent 10am (day) aggressive>
Your chop MUTILATES Thalandir!
Thalandir awkwardly parries your pierce with a loud clang.
Your chop maims Thalandir!
Thalandir blocks your attack with his shield.
Thalandir's shield jolts under your sting, but holds.
Thalandir's shield wobbles and barely deflects your chop.
You parry Thalandir's wrath with a hasty swing from your off-hand weapon.
Thalandir's wrath DISEMBOWELS you!
Thalandir's wrath DISEMBOWELS you!
Thalandir has some big nasty wounds and scratches.
<186hp 315m 448mv 6912gold shaft defensive ground 10am (day) aggressive>
Thalandir stops using a faded kite shield as a shield.
Thalandir has some big nasty wounds and scratches.
<186hp 315m 448mv 6912gold shaft dual_wield ground 10am (day) aggressive>
ber
Thalandir's condemn DISMEMBERS you!
Thalandir parries your chop.
Thalandir turns your attack aside with a nimble feint.
Thalandir's wrath DISMEMBERS you!
Thalandir's wrath MASSACRES you!
You have yielded to Thalandir.
[WARLORD] Aragmon the cyclops: 'Thoom has been defeated by Thalandir.'
[WARLORD] Aragmon the cyclops: 'The duel lasted 1 minute and 31 seconds.'
I had come in to this fight with an idea or two of what might work and what I wanted to try. I had an incorrect preconceived notion that feint only worked with a sword for some reason, so that messed me up a tiny bit. But mostly what happened is after seeing half my health disappear in two seconds pretty much any and all 'plans' got thrown out the window and I just floundered like a fish out of water.
Thoom 0 , 0 , 0 . I miss 9/10 dirt kicks.
Kaeno 1 , 0 , 0 . No worries, Thoom. He did the same thing to me twice in a row.
Davairus 1 , 0 , 1 . "endless supply of mana" come on man, some of us are trying to read the boards for actual intelligent content. this is pure bullshit Kaeno 0 , 0 , 0 . Clearly someone has little appreciation for hyperbole. No need to throw out the baby with the bath water. There are good insights in this log, if you care to read them. Davairus 1 , 0 , 0 . You are correct I have little appreciation for it. A month ago, people were saying they are typing the command and its useless and doesn't do anything. Now after a small tweak its all screams and more work wanted. Its a bunch of frustration. So if you could just talk straight talk that would save a lot of time. (The same thing happened to lightning charge which was originally considered absolutely useless because of saplings - a good player showed you it isnt)
[reply to Bladefury]I wanted to hobble him. But I'll be completely honest. I panicked. I saw how bad I was getting wrecked and then I couldn't manage to get combat styles right. He picked the right style over me almost every time. I should have hit the hobble towards the beginning where I was superior (it's the only part of the log where I actually land attacks) but I just noobed it.
I think a key disarm could work too. He has no shield if feinting, so you can even go with a defensive set up and land a spin bash. Spin bash into bash chain might bring him down.
I'd be interested to see if you're right about the unable to feint hobbled. It's not in the help file, but it would make sense.
As for a warrior, I'm not sure if they can win that fight unless hobble does indeed stop feint. It's more effective than ghostwalking, but without the mana cost, plus a fencing elf hits like a damn freight train. IF they start losing the fight they can just run and heal with their endless supply of mana. Ranger in the forest might stand a better chance.
I was looking forward to this duel and unfortunately left disappointed. I would wager a guess he is using a vainglory so disarming him would be pointless. However, if you use a sword, I imagine a warlord with weapon advantage will do extremely well. I personally I doubt hobble will stop feint, but at the very least you should be able to hit him more. Perhaps a well timed hobble, followed with kicks and bash will be more effective.
Thoom 0 , 0 , 0 . You're right about vainglory, he may not use that weapon against others though, but against a stone giant he will. So disarm is right out.
[reply to Kremina]Kaeno also is right, he'll just heal. He outdamages a warrior, and out defends a warrior, and can heal. It really isn't a fight a warrior can win I don't think. Unless hobble is a massive difference. Even if it stops feint, he may still out damage, and he will still be able to just run and heal. Hobble duration on an elf might be decent, but it won't be long enough, I think.
Ozaru 
1 , 0 , 0 . The input command for feint is basically reflex for warriors, without the loss of second or third attack condemn seems like hobble for warriors, lightning charge is basically infinite shadowspear . Wearing a one handed weapon is basically like favored weapon also it raises your hit damn by like 5 or 6. at least at lvl 25 that is as far as I got. condemn can be communed , then wrath and back to condemn. So you can get hit by 3 regular attacks, they can feint your attack and hit you, coupled with a condem and a wrath. Oh they also have protection sanc and cure serious and summon. Ozaru 
0 , 0 , 0 . feint is auto when in one handed, the input feint lasts for a few rounds. SOrry i didn't answer your question fully. hamsandwich 
0 , 0 , 0 . I'd argue that feint is better even than reflex and more akin to ghostwalk. At least from my limited experience, it seems like feint blocks more attacks than reflex does.
Nadrin 0 , 0 , 0 . Thoom should not go into reflex to test feint, because while feinting, Thalandir will still be dealing 100% of his melee damage, while reflex is purely defensive. hamsandwich 
0 , 0 , 0 . But feint blocks and counters attacks, in reflex there will only be 1 single attack to block and counter, meanwhile Thalandir will have a normal amount (1-3) attacks that Thoom himself can riposte. Right?
[reply to hamsandwich]Thoom should overbear a mace and go into reflex and see who wins. He'd have combat style superiority and overbeared mace reflex vs feint.
Also I am still confused. You say feint is auto and that there's an input?
I mean you're probably right, Thoom is still gonna lose. But I thought it was an interesting theory at least.
The convo about OP shrunken heads took a back burner really quick.
Watching this whole thing with the elf pallys reminds me when the changes for ninjas dropped a few years back. Shadow spear was global, and the shadow thing where you step in to avoid the attack was practically infinite. Vet player ate that shit up and took advantage of it until it got fixed. Also remember Sevaush ate two pointless and unwarranted deaths(due to not testing before going live) and was sooooo pissed.
This is ninja update drop 2.0
Which brings back the exact same conversation from then... Was this stuff tested thoroughly before going live? Even if you said yes it was, it would be hard to believe you'd let this mess slide through.
Nadrin 1 , 0 , 0 . The big thing here is this isn't the same. Yes, Thalandir is a beast, and he is getting good kills with this. But it is possible to get away and outmanuever him. It is just a major uphill battle. However, so far all the logs show him dominating, I would like to see what classes fuck him over. Davairus 0 , 0 , 1 . It was not only tested thoroughly, it was play-tested by several good-align leaning Immortals. Other veterans created eradicator paladins long before Thalandir even rolled. They levelled to 50 without complaining they are too buff. Others levelled up with them. You might be surprised to learn these guys were playing a paladin expecting a buffer character than was available the week before, and found no problem with that.
Xenyar 
0 , 0 , 0 . I read your first sentence and stopped...because everything after that is probably the regurgitated bunch of the usual defending, justifying, then turning into the aggressor...and I'm guessing the rest of your post is like that. Fencing and lightning charge is shit right now... just admit it... fix it... move on. We all will accept that. I know I will. Davairus 0 , 0 , 1 . I would say you were the aggressor (to use your words) when you were claiming it wasn't tested properly and all I posted was the facts, which apparently caused you to stop reading instantly. Xenyar 
1 , 0 , 0 . Just like ninjas reboot was tested properly? Ozaru 
1 , 0 , 0 . Unlike Xenyar, I read the entire post. Did these immortals actually fight each other? I mean if I rolled an elf paladin and was able to solo areas, I would think something is wrong. The fact that the guy who is killing everyone with ease is saying feint is too powerful should tell you something about your practice dummies. The only fight where Thalandir was even challenged was when Dorgan with his buff ass shrunken head was able to mitigate those sweet paladin skills used a charmie to rescue him numerous times. Thalandir has fought a ranger, monk, shadow, shaman, warrior, druid and won with ease. It is no surprise the evil circle jerk has stopped logging in because they know they will get smoked.
Ozaru 
2 , 0 , 0 . The other part I don't think should be overlooked is the equipment that he can obtain. The whole point of winter areas is to make it difficult to obtain. If one guy can get everything he needs rather easily puts the entire pbase at a disadvantage and making his equipment that much more valuable. You can say get your gank squads ready but that isn't really fun for anyone. I think in my 20 years of playing I have actually been to order maybe twice and seen the equipment on someone a handful of times. The fact that he can just up and go get it with one other dude is just unfair. Merlandox 
1 , 0 , 0 . I must say this was no way as bad as the shadow. The shadow had skill that were bugged causing it to be global and it was unfightable.
Xenyar 
0 , 0 , 0 . What this guys said^^^^^^ Xenyar 
0 , 0 , 0 . Not as bad as the ninja drop, Merlandox. You're right. A solid second place though. Davairus 0 , 0 , 0 . Xenyar, ninjas weren't possible to test very thoroughly because there was ZERO interest in volunteering for testing. Its not like I wanted to launch it overpowered. We were entering a new field of gameplay (energy gauges), and I think for all the hoo-ha about the skills being strong, the core mechanics worked very well and didn't get enough praise for that.
Thoom 0 , 0 , 0 . I have pretty great AC gear. I even have a focus on magic AC specifically. It's not perfectly min/maxed by any means, but I definitely am not wearing "an eye patch." (I do still have the assassin's garb though that you hate, but I love it.)
Ozaru 
0 , 0 , 0 . I mean i will volunteer to test any skill or new race class combo. I for one am tired of getting smashed by players that get the inside track on these changes. I have had enough of the Lornes, Voglins, Vyas, Ygins, Sevuash's, Ravinahs, Uvets, Thalandirs, and Eurayels getting the benefit from all of my beast rangers and monks getting absolutely shit on and then a few months later after they get HOE, oh we need to nerf this. Meanwhile Ive deleted 5, 50's in the mean time. Davairus 0 , 0 , 0 . only reason why fencing defense is good is because it doesnt make a hitroll check which was a decision I had weighed against the reduced AC I gave them when I blocked fencing with heavy armor. and that has been broken by some update that causes eradication paladins to get heavy armor bonus from light armor and probably builders changing items Jhaeros 1 , 0 , 0 . Guys, wait and see how other eradication paladins turn out.
Davairus 0 , 0 , 0 . Its not even just fencing. The 25 strength-like damage boost (elf eradication checks int for damroll bonus) was weighed vs the lower AC causing less efficient healing. I dont have any further words about it ivindel 
0 , 0 , 0 . For an Eradicator paladin, he has to restrict himself to light armor (useful medium armor is non-existent) to open up the option of using fencing, which locks him out of the other good armor set choices (such as 'fire with fire' or 'golden guardian'). If anyone has played an elf Eradicator paladin, I believe most would have run into this issue while itemizing which can be a real tough challenge. On the other hand, paladins from other specs can easily just use any type of heavy armor, forged or otherwise, to build a good set.
Erelanidd 0 , 0 , 0 . From my experience fence seems like ghost walk without the mana penalty. I'd say give slight damage boost when fencing slight defence boost and when feint is active it should do what ghost walk does and take mana everytime it works. Thorgoth 
0 , 0 , 1 . For the record Ozaru - Vya was post Shadow updates and I reported a large amount of bugs while playing the class that needed to be tweaked in order to straighten them out. I had to cope with the tweaks but it made them a more well-rounded class, but I still destroyed with her because that’s what you do when you’re a vet player. You learn your class, you learn your combos and you learn when and where to use your skills.
Merlandox 
1 , 0 , 0 . Kremina doesnt run with hide because you can't hide with offensive adrenaline anymore. Thorgoth is lagging behind times. Lol. Davairus 1 , 0 , 0 . So.. I've banned eradication paladins from misusing condemn in duels. That skill is granted for witch hunts resulting in a purging of that person or thing from the realms. Going forward, misusing that skill is risking outcast. As I've said, a paladins biggest vulnerability is that sticking to his oath is a restrictive RP.
[reply to Xenyar]This log is like, literally, a guy won a duel vs a stone giant. Why is this a big fucking deal? Hand over that paladins gear to a competent elf warrior, and it will REALLY smoke Thoom. And I'll do it a good deal easier with dirt kicks and trips. Are you going to be crying riposte and dodge are OP after he loses because of dirt kicks and trip? Surely not. I can sympathize with a stone giant losing to magic weapons but the player picked the race. Nobody forced the player to pick the race with a terrible magic ac and shove it into Warlords. Its just got visceral appeal from a possibility to win duels with reduced difficulty (i.e. 24 strength bash and low-effort hobble). There is a price to pay for that. We all know stone giant warriors have their flaws. This guy locked himself into a fight where he got spanked by a class that can overpower him with healing and magic damage from good equipment. This should not be coming as a surprise to anybody involved.
Anyway, I do intend to spend much more time on fencing (i.e. a full revisit, not just a "balance tweak"). That was a very large patch and I didn't feel there was enough time available to justify focusing on fencing skills as much as I wanted to. I'm sure we can do fencing in AR a lot better justice. I would like it to require more active inputs and less working passively in the background for you. At the time of working on it, I wasn't sure if the eradication spec would even be popular because it competes directly with the avenger spec. So now we can see the spec has turned out more popular than expected, it definitely justifies spending more time on it.
We can all acknowledge it is hard coming up with new shit to make a class more interesting, I used to play elf paladins all the time and loved it. I personally stopped playing them because of divine sacrifice. I would bet dollars to donuts thalandir isn't even using heroism or divince sac in these fights.
The elf paladin is really strong right now but I'm not sure abt the real facts behind the spec unless i see the code or do more self testing.
1. His damage seems really ridiculous for a 1handed. He does constant demolish. A warrior needs something like 80 damroll to do that, and he does it in mithril phoenix previously? How does that eq warrant the damage. There seems to be some damage increment in his spec.
2. Fencing's defense is strong. While it's not entirely impenetrable like the shadows when launched it is strong. Giving that kind of defense to a class that can heal and having insane AC?
With the defense and damage thalandir is dishing out, he doesn't really need to heal much. Put a shadow or a monk fighting thoom and they'll be busy healing their ass off just to survive and eventually slug it out for a win. That's the difference people are trying to tell u. My two cents.
I don't think any of your well made points crosses his mind, Ozaru.
You're making a very false comparison between ninjas and paladins anyway though, because the facts are fencing and lightning charge launched as luke-warm skills, even after a lot of playtesting.
Each of the skills I just mentioned are only the way it is now because I'd made a decision to approve other people's conservative buffing suggestions (several months POST launch), after they played more and there was even more testing. I literally didnt put a hand on my keyboard to make things the way they currently are, other than as just reviewing and saying ok lets give that a try, knowing eradicator is sub-par. Other than that, I've had little much to do with it. I wasn't particularly trying to be a dictator of everything here. But I am certainly choosing to make a decision to defend what I saw was well-reasoned input, after playing a real character. I don't see logs really supporting the view that its super bad. I've had one certain high level imm tell me they literally had no desire to ever try using lightning charge. Imagine that.
I do appreciate you are trying to help with game balance but I am feeling much more concerned about the whole forged enchanted armor 500 ac high damroll gear. That is because that's a bit of a driving force to persuade a developer to enhance the opposing classes skills, particularly melee related skills. That is a pressure that will not go away regardless of whatever is done to paladin skills. That equipment exaberates the issue of stone giant's low AC to magic weapons particularly effectively. Just look at what the stone giants are doing. They are wearing eye patches with literally zero AC on them, in a slot which has an AC multiplier, wondering why all their health disappeared in two seconds. That is dumb to the point it makes me want to make the choices easier for them.
Even still though, 500 AC on paladins is crazy. Obviously stone giant is going to have lower AC, but with pretty good gear and tenor I am at a tiny fraction of that. Not even close.
Also don't forget shaman's AC is way high because of shrunken heads. Everyone's been getting AC buffs. It just makes low dex races suffer worse, I think. But I am obviously and admittedly biased.
There's currently an influx of elf paladins, which are probably going to try to be the next Thalandir.
Maybe give it a chance and see how they fare. It's possible that Thalandir is just awesome and the class isn't that broken.
It certainly looks like he is putting in the effort to make his character the best he can, maybe that actually pays of?
That said, in the current state, I feel that fencing is the only redeeming quality for an elf Eradicator paladin. Without fencing, the rest of his arsenal of skills/spells are just "meh" (compared to the oath of vengance paladin for example). Also normally, no one would play an elf paladin to gimp themselves with the low hp, and low weight limit, sub-par parry and naturally low hit/dam due to low strength. It was only when Thalandir decided to give fencing a serious try and posted logs of himself owning with the superior damage and defense of fencing, that there was a sudden influx of elf paladins eager to try it out for themselves.
I have to admit that fencing is in a strong spot at the moment. In terms of damage, from my observation, fencing seems to provide some sort of multiplier to the weapon damage (on top of the +7/+7 that comes with the effect of fencing at level 50), very much similar to two-handed weapon damage multiplier. Defense-wise, Davairus had already mentioned that it doesn't make a hitroll check which then probably explains why it works almost akin to monks in leopard stance. Currently, an eradicator paladin in fencing can definitely tank better than a warrior in any combat style.
All things considered, it will certainly be tricky to find a good balance for an Eradicator paladin. Nerf fencing too much and the elf paladin goes back to being thrash. Don't do anything about it and everyone continues to complain about the OPness (just like the OP shrunken head shields). Honestly, I can't think of a good suggestion on how to tweak this at the moment, so I am simply sharing my observations.
I’m not weighing in on elf paladins. They are strong but every class has a way to be defeated, you just need to know how to escape and try again. I haven’t seen a single person drop a recall potion to get away, nor are people like Kremina using hide to escape. Know your skills and try and try again. If you are still noticing shit like lightning charge because infinite shadowspear then I say but it, but bring constructive criticism to the table on how it can be improved only after playing the class yourself and understanding the ins and outs of the class.
So I just read through all the recent logs and Thalandir is even saying shit ain't right.
Nadrin 0 , 0 , 0 . I am curious to see what gets changed and how. I look forward to it too.
[reply to Xenyar]I agree that eradicator is made or broken by feint. It's all they have. Lots less fun and flashy than the other specs. But that's no reason to leave feint broken. As it is it's so OP it's all he needs. He doesn't even need cure spells or wrath.
I think that a lot of skills in the game are somewhat 'unnoticeable' if you will. Meaning that when you use them, you just have to have faith that they actually do anything. You can use nerve and decrease your opponent's strength, which is a pretty huge detriment to them. But you can't really tell if it's having any affect, you just have faith that it is. Feint isn't one of those things. It's flashy as hell and obvious it's changing the game. It needs to be brought to a level that's a little less in your face. Just decrease the bonus. Don't remove it. Just make it smaller. I can't imagine that isn't a decent option?
Davairus 1 , 0 , 0 . I dont really wanna keep responding to this stuff because I have already chosen what I intend to do with it anyway. In fact I would rather talk about what makes some players think it is so necessary to have ourselves a nice merry witch hunt to gimp the paladin class.
Arunore 
0 , 0 , 0 . hey dav, at this point, i think you'd save yourself a lot of headache if you just included every single thing mechanic-wise in the helpfile of the song/skill/and/or spell. and just have unique circumstances where you do not include this information on skills that are left to mystify, like devils dance, animate corpse, tarot cards. you don't have to give the code away, but just state what the ability actually does. Arunore 
0 , 0 , 0 . by the by, how does one become an Emissary? Davairus 0 , 0 , 0 . Resatimm curates the emissary group so just ask him, probably on discord is the easiest place to find him. Ozaru 
0 , 0 , 0 . Thats not the point at all that people are making. Players like Runath and Navatar did just fine as paladins. Trovo and Rhoa seemed to be able to hold their own recently. You won't see hasted illusionists anymore because the damage from timbers or rugged sliths is stupid. I am no expert with an ill but it is definitely a lot harder to get kills now that what we had to contend with before. Necros take 3 hours to prep no one has time for that. Hirenden is a competent player but no one is screaming that duergar berserkers are op. You maybe facing a murderous row of assassins, but this game ebs and flows with evils or goods on top. Right now 10 people could be one 9 are elves and 1 is a half elf.
Merlandox 
0 , 0 , 0 . Well dav. You nerfed DKs, you nerfed illusionist, you nerfef necro, you nerfed shadows. All the murderous assassins has been nerfed hard. Now paladins are so buffed to stand a chance against non-existent murderous threats. Davairus 1 , 0 , 0 . paladin nerfs for xmas pal
[reply to hamsandwich]You know that level 50 is a very difficult place for a paladin to be. I'll keep saying that. You have to deal with rend life necros, hasted illusionists, dark-knights bringing that *massive* unholy strength, duergar berserkers with cabal powers (look at duergar stats if you dont think that isnt a serious issue for a paladin), decked shamans, vampires, the drow shadows with the assassinate poison mastery, and I can go on and on. You will be facing a murderous row of assassins. Alone. All that stuff has been dunking forever is powerful to the point that some people see it coming and just quit out. I'll never forgot the post I read now, "Why is my spiked iron trident doing only injures to this guy?" You know what post I am talking about. Now, here we are in a logboard thread because a paladin has gained a defense skill that makes them not die as super fast, and that absolutely has to fucking go right away. It is like I said, I can turn a valve a few percent but if I overshoot it you guys will just be using set parry (which also doesnt check hitroll). And I have something different in mind and dont want to respond to this witch hunt stuff.
We can all agree like I said before coming up with viable ideas is HARD. Balancing the game is even HARDER. Right now every elf eradicator spec has a benefit, the only draw back is if you kill a good aligned mob you turn evil. Is that a huge risk, no it isn't because you can control that. The consequences are insane, but you don't need lightning charge to kill someone when you deal out 200 damage per round and don't take any.