<819/819hp 494/825m 402/619mv no opponent no opponent calm> [----------] 9am (day) field (outside) murder $$
You fade into existence.
Toland parries your slice.
Toland parries your stab.
Your acidic venom grazes Toland.
Your venom burns into Toland's skin!
Toland turns slightly green, but it passes.
Toland has a few scratches.
<819/819hp 494/825m 402/619mv blade defensive bloody:40> [----------] 9am (day) field (outside)
Toland's divine power DISEMBOWELS you!
Your slice misses Toland.
Toland parries your stab.
Toland parries your slice.
Your acidic venom hits Toland.
Your venom burns into Toland's skin!
Toland turns slightly green, but it passes.
Toland has a few scratches.
<774/819hp 494/825m 402/619mv blade defensive bloody:40> [----------] 9am (day) field (outside) blind
Toland's reckoning DISEMBOWELS you!
You are pushed backward.
Toland has a few scratches.
<729/819hp 494/825m 402/619mv blade defensive bloody:40> [----------] 9am (day) field (outside)
You fill the room with a cloud of dust.
(WILDLY) a goliath yells 'Help! Chul just threw dust in my eyes!'
Your blindness dust scratches a goliath.
A goliath is blinded by the dust in his eyes!
Your blindness dust grazes Toland.
You fail to blind Toland.
Toland has a few scratches.
<729/819hp 479/825m 402/619mv blade defensive bloody:40> [----------] 9am (day) field (outside)
You dance around Toland's divine power and easily dodge it.
You dodge Toland's divine power.
Toland's shield absorbs the impact of your slice easily.
Toland's shield spike wounds you.
Toland has a few scratches.
<712/819hp 479/825m 402/619mv blade defensive bloody:40> [----------] 9am (day) field (outside) fle
You manage to dodge Toland's divine power with a lot of effort.
Toland blocks your attack with his shield.
Toland's shield spike maims you!
Your slice decimates Toland!
Your acidic venom grazes Toland.
Your venom burns into Toland's skin!
Toland turns slightly green, but it passes.
Toland has a few scratches.
<677/819hp 479/825m 402/619mv blade defensive bloody:40> [----------] 9am (day) field (outside)
Toland braces his shield in front of him.
Toland has a few scratches.
<677/819hp 479/825m 402/619mv blade defensive bloody:40> [----------] 9am (day) field (outside) wear fla
You flee from combat!
At a Mountainside
[Exits: east west]
<677/819hp 479/825m 400/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:40> [----------] 9am (day) forest (outside)
You stop wielding a peacemaker dirk.
You hold a brewing flask in your hand.
You are now counterbalanced.
You regain composure and reapproach.
<677/819hp 479/825m 400/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:39> [----------] 9am (day) forest (outside) w
murder $$
On a Path up the Mountainside
[Exits: east up]
(White Aura) Toland is riding on the back of a goliath.
<677/819hp 479/825m 398/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:38> [----------] 9am (day) field (outside)
Toland narrows his eyes.
You yell 'Help! Toland is attacking me with heavenly wrath!'
Toland's heavenly wrath DISEMBOWELS you!
Toland has a few scratches.
<633/819hp 479/825m 390/619mv blade defensive bloody:40> [----------] 9am (day) field (outside)
You do the best you can!
Toland has a few scratches.
<633/819hp 479/825m 390/619mv blade defensive bloody:40> [----------] 9am (day) field (outside) fle
You flee from combat!
At a Mountainside
[Exits: east west]
<633/819hp 479/825m 388/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:40> [----------] 9am (day) forest (outside) wear flail
You stop wielding a peacemaker longsword.
You wield a flail of intense molten fire.
A flail of intense molten fire feels like a part of you!
<633/839hp 479/825m 388/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:39> [----------] 9am (day) forest (outside) e
Before Mountains
[Exits: east west]
<633/839hp 479/825m 385/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:38> [----------] 9am (day) forest (outside) e
Rimath the trader auctions 'Place yer bids! rugged sleeves of the bull is being auctioned for 20000 gold!'
<633/839hp 479/825m 385/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:38> [----------] 9am (day) forest (outside)
Forest Trail
[Exits: east west]
<633/839hp 479/825m 382/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:38> [----------] 9am (day) forest (outside) du dirk
w
You stop holding a brewing flask in your hand.
You wield a peacemaker dirk in your off-hand.
A peacemaker dirk feels like a part of you!
You are no longer counterbalanced.
<633/839hp 479/825m 382/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:36> [----------] 9am (day) forest (outside) w
Before Mountains
[Exits: east west]
<633/839hp 479/825m 379/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:36> [----------] 9am (day) forest (outside)
At a Mountainside
[Exits: east west]
<633/839hp 479/825m 376/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:35> [----------] 9am (day) forest (outside) w
On a Path up the Mountainside
[Exits: east up]
(White Aura) Toland is riding on the back of a goliath.
<633/839hp 479/825m 374/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:40> [----------] 9am (day) field (outside) murder $$
Toland rides east on a goliath.
<633/839hp 479/825m 374/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:39> [----------] 9am (day) field (outside)
They aren't here.
<652/839hp 483/825m 429/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:39> [----------] 10am (day) field (outside) e
murder $$
At a Mountainside
[Exits: east west]
<652/839hp 483/825m 427/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:38> [----------] 10am (day) forest (outside) e
They aren't here.
<652/839hp 483/825m 427/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:38> [----------] 10am (day) forest (outside) murder $$
Before Mountains
[Exits: east west]
<652/839hp 483/825m 424/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:38> [----------] 10am (day) forest (outside)
They aren't here.
<652/839hp 483/825m 424/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:37> [----------] 10am (day) forest (outside) e
murder $$
Forest Trail
[Exits: east west]
<652/839hp 483/825m 421/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:37> [----------] 10am (day) forest (outside)
They aren't here.
<652/839hp 483/825m 421/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:36> [----------] 10am (day) forest (outside) sca
You scan all around.
You scan east.
*** Range 1 (east) ***
(White Aura) Toland is riding on the back of a goliath.
You scan west.
<652/839hp 483/825m 421/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:36> [----------] 10am (day) forest (outside) e
murder $$
Forest Trail
[Exits: east west]
<652/839hp 483/825m 418/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:35> [----------] 10am (day) forest (outside)
Toland rides in on a goliath.
<652/839hp 483/825m 418/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:35> [----------] 10am (day) forest (outside)
Toland grips his shield firmly, staving off your flame.
Toland's shield spike decimates you!
Your stab maims Toland!
Your acidic venom grazes Toland.
Your venom burns into Toland's skin!
Toland turns slightly green, but it passes.
Toland has a few scratches.
<627/839hp 483/825m 418/619mv blade defensive bloody:40> [----------] 10am (day) forest (outside) e
murder $$
Toland narrows his eyes.
Toland has a few scratches.
<627/839hp 483/825m 418/619mv blade defensive bloody:40> [----------] 10am (day) forest (outside)
You deflect Toland's divine power aside in an ungraceful parry.
You dodge Toland's divine power.
Toland's shield wobbles and barely deflects your flame.
Toland's shield spike mauls you.
Toland blocks your attack with his shield.
Toland's shield spike wounds you.
Toland grips his shield firmly, staving off your flame.
Toland's shield spike devastates you!
Your acidic venom grazes Toland.
Your venom burns into Toland's skin!
Your poison grazes Toland.
Toland looks very ill.
Toland has some small wounds and bruises.
<554/839hp 483/825m 418/619mv blade defensive bloody:40> [----------] 10am (day) forest (outside)
No way! You are still fighting!
Toland has some small wounds and bruises.
<554/839hp 483/825m 418/619mv blade defensive bloody:40> [----------] 10am (day) forest (outside)
You do the best you can!
Toland has some small wounds and bruises.
<554/839hp 483/825m 418/619mv blade defensive bloody:40> [----------] 10am (day) forest (outside) nerv
You weaken Toland with your nerve pressure.
Toland has some small wounds and bruises.
<554/839hp 508/825m 418/619mv blade defensive bloody:40> [------- ] 10am (day) forest (outside)
Toland has fled!
Toland rides west on a goliath.
<554/839hp 508/825m 418/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:39> [------- ] 10am (day) forest (outside) w
Toland walks in.
<554/839hp 508/825m 418/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:36> [------- ] 10am (day) forest (outside)
You yell 'Help! I am being attacked by Toland!'
Toland's divine power DISEMBOWELS you!
Toland's divine power DISEMBOWELS you!
Toland has some small wounds and bruises.
<466/839hp 508/825m 418/619mv blade defensive bloody:40> [------- ] 10am (day) forest (outside)
No way! You are still fighting!
Toland has some small wounds and bruises.
<466/839hp 508/825m 418/619mv blade defensive bloody:40> [------- ] 10am (day) forest (outside)
You dodge Toland's divine power.
Your weapon advantage overcomes Toland's parry attempt.
Your flame devastates Toland!
Toland grips his shield firmly, staving off your stab.
Toland's shield spike wounds you.
Your acidic venom hits Toland.
Your venom burns into Toland's skin!
Toland turns slightly green, but it passes.
Toland has some small wounds and bruises.
<448/839hp 508/825m 418/619mv blade defensive bloody:40> [--------- ] 10am (day) forest (outside) di
Toland is blinded by the dirt in his eyes!
Your kicked dirt scratches Toland.
Toland has some small wounds and bruises.
<448/839hp 523/825m 418/619mv blade defensive bloody:40> [-------- ] 10am (day) forest (outside) fle
Toland's divine power DISMEMBERS you!
You dodge Toland's divine power.
Toland blocks your attack with his shield.
Toland's shield spike devastates you!
Your acidic venom grazes Toland.
Your venom burns into Toland's skin!
Toland turns slightly green, but it passes.
Toland has some small wounds and bruises.
<354/839hp 523/825m 418/619mv blade defensive bloody:40> [-------- ] 10am (day) forest (outside)
Toland's divine power DISEMBOWELS you!
Your flame devastates Toland!
Toland's shield jolts under your stab, but holds.
Toland's shield spike decimates you!
Your acidic venom grazes Toland.
Your venom burns into Toland's skin!
Toland turns slightly green, but it passes.
Toland has some small wounds and bruises.
<275/839hp 523/825m 418/619mv blade defensive bloody:40> [-------- ] 10am (day) forest (outside) nin gho
Toland has fled!
Toland walks west.
<275/839hp 523/825m 418/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:40> [-------- ] 10am (day) forest (outside)
You aren't fighting anyone.
<275/839hp 523/825m 418/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:39> [-------- ] 10am (day) forest (outside) w
You now channel ki to meld entirely with the shadows.
<275/839hp 523/825m 418/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:39> [-------- ] 10am (day) forest (outside)
Forest Trail
[Exits: east west]
A large black goliath is here, decorated with a silver warcoat.
<275/839hp 523/825m 415/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:39> [-------- ] 10am (day) forest (outside) murder $$
They aren't here.
<275/839hp 523/825m 415/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:38> [-------- ] 10am (day) forest (outside) w
w
Before Mountains
[Exits: east west]
<275/839hp 523/825m 412/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:38> [----------] 10am (day) forest (outside) murder $$
At a Mountainside
[Exits: east west]
<275/839hp 523/825m 409/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:38> [----------] 10am (day) forest (outside) w
w
They aren't here.
<275/839hp 523/825m 409/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:37> [----------] 10am (day) forest (outside) murder $$
On a Path up the Mountainside
[Exits: east up]
(White Aura) Toland is here.
<275/839hp 523/825m 407/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:37> [----------] 10am (day) field (outside)
Toland walks up.
<275/839hp 523/825m 407/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:37> [----------] 10am (day) field (outside)
Alas, you cannot go that way.
<275/839hp 523/825m 407/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:36> [----------] 10am (day) field (outside)
They aren't here.
<275/839hp 523/825m 407/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:36> [----------] 10am (day) field (outside) u
u
On a Path up the Mountainside
[Exits: up down]
<275/839hp 523/825m 403/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:35> [----------] 10am (day) mountain (outside) u
Top of the Mountain
[Exits: west down]
<275/839hp 523/825m 397/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:35> [----------] 10am (day) mountain (outside) s
Alas, you cannot go that way.
<275/839hp 523/825m 397/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:34> [----------] 10am (day) mountain (outside) w
Alas, you cannot go that way.
<275/839hp 523/825m 397/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:34> [----------] 10am (day) mountain (outside) w
On a Cliff
[Exits: east down]
<275/839hp 523/825m 391/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:34> [----------] 10am (day) mountain (outside)
Alas, you cannot go that way.
<275/839hp 523/825m 391/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:33> [----------] 10am (day) mountain (outside) d
On a Jagged Cliff
[Exits: up down]
<275/839hp 523/825m 385/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:33> [----------] 10am (day) mountain (outside) d
Base of a Cliff
[Exits: west up]
(White Aura) Toland is here.
<275/839hp 523/825m 379/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:33> [----------] 10am (day) mountain (outside) murder $$
Toland's shield jolts under your flame, but holds.
Toland's shield spike mauls you.
Toland grips his shield firmly, staving off your stab.
Toland's shield spike mauls you.
Toland blocks your attack with his shield.
Toland's shield spike mauls you.
Your acidic venom grazes Toland.
Your venom burns into Toland's skin!
Toland turns slightly green, but it passes.
You step in close to avoid the attack.
You awkwardly parry Toland's divine power with a loud clang.
Your flame devastates Toland!
Toland grips his shield firmly, staving off your stab.
Toland's shield spike devastates you!
Toland has some small wounds and bruises.
<179/839hp 428/825m 379/619mv blade defensive bloody:40> [----------] 10am (day) mountain (outside)
You feel more susceptible to magic again.
Toland has some small wounds and bruises.
<191/839hp 432/825m 432/619mv blade defensive bloody:40> [----------] 11am (day) mountain (outside)
Toland's facial expression turns to iron.
Toland has some small wounds and bruises.
<191/839hp 432/825m 432/619mv blade defensive bloody:40> [----------] 11am (day) mountain (outside)
Toland rubs the dirt out of his eyes, but they're still watering.
You dance around Toland's divine power and easily dodge it.
Toland blocks your attack with his shield.
Toland's shield spike decimates you!
Toland's shield wobbles and barely deflects your flame.
Toland's shield spike wounds you.
Your flame maims Toland!
Your acidic venom grazes Toland.
Your venom burns into Toland's skin!
Toland turns slightly green, but it passes.
Toland has quite a few wounds.
<147/839hp 432/825m 432/619mv blade defensive bloody:40> [----------] 11am (day) mountain (outside) fle
You flee from combat!
On a Jagged Cliff
[Exits: up down]
<147/839hp 432/825m 426/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:39> [----------] 11am (day) mountain (outside) hold per
quaff per
You stop wielding a peacemaker dirk.
You hold a perfect potion of recall in your hand.
You are now counterbalanced.
<147/839hp 432/825m 426/619mv no opponent no opponent bloody:39> [----------] 11am (day) mountain (outside)
You quaff a perfect potion of recall.
The Temple of Eternal Night
=====================================================================================================
LOL Any advice is welcome since his shield spikes hit harder and more often than I do.
Chul 0 , 0 , 0 . This is the part that I struggle with against classes with vulns and especially now with these weird benefits to being combat disadvantaged. Trying to be superior in combat advantage doesn't seem to work at all with paladins which is a bit frustrating. I fought him earlier and used a piercing dagger and did decent damage but got destroyed in the dual wield vs counterbalance as you would expect. The going dual wield vs his shield defensive was a joke. Weapon advantage and combat advantage really doesn't seem to matter against a paladin at least from a shadows perspective.
hamsandwich 
1 , 0 , 0 . Combat style matters little in shadow vs paladin. Because neither one of you can take advantage of it. No barrage/hobble/etc. No concentration. It don't matter. That's not new, you should know that.
hamsandwich 
0 , 0 , 0 . Another issue with disarm is the strength disparity I think. Isn't disarm strength based? So maybe you can't disarm a jotun because you're a drow rogue and he's got a huge ass sword. Idk.
[reply to Mr. Forgotten]As far as landing an assassinate, strangle is the key. You can't just start a fight off with assassinate or backstab if they are alerted of your presence. So if they see you coming which is pretty easy in the forest and detect invis, it won't work. The cost benefit for strangle to land is pretty dicey. If I fail to strangle I get hit with a couple rounds of lag and my hp can drop so fast. Even if I do land it, no guarantee that I will even hit assassinate, and no guarantee the poison mastery will take effect. So I have 3 instances of failing, lagging myself and taking major damage. And Im not even talking about the 1 hit kill, just let me do a dismember with guaranteed poison and I will be more inclined to try it. It really sucks as a shadow to have such a wonderful skill at your disposal, but being to afraid to use it.
Paladins also have iron will so when you try to disarm you fail lag yourself and eat shield slams. Fighting against a paladin is now one of the most counter intuitive classes because weapon and combat advantage means nothing. You actually seem to take more damage when you are advantaged, which makes it really hard to break that mindset. Dirt doesn't seem to last nearly as long against a paladin as it should especially with the dex difference on a jotun or dwarf.
I was really hoping to see the log of Baloth taking on 3 evils and killing one of them. Paladins seem to have no fear of anyone now and even my own experience fighting a paladin 2 v 1 with a monk yeah we killed him, but he was kicking our ass the entire time and we got lucky that his sanc fell. Im not saying they need to be nerfed even more, but definitely different strategies out side of ganking need to be looked at.
Weapon advantage definitely matters, because parry and because your rogue skills. Sidestep his ass.
Also, your confirmation bias is what makes you think dirt doesn't work. Drow shadow dirt vs ANYONE is OP as all fuck. Against a paladin it is your number one thing. So abuse the hell out of it. Disarm also helps, but like you said iron will exists. However iron will is manually activated and has a long cooldown. So unless he has actually manually typed out iron will and it is active and not on cooldown, you don't have to worry about it. So that is a minor thing. Still go for disarms.
Don't dual wield against him, no matter what combat style he is in. Just go for weapon advantage, dirt kick, rogue skills. You'll get him on the ropes. Except for maybe shield spike being OP and shadows don't get shield disarm. But def do NOT dual wield against a protection paladin as a shadow! You lose defenses and only give him extra shield spikes. Just stay counterbalanced. Rogues should only worry about combat style against warriors/zerker/ranger and maybe monk. And for dope two handed clobber/uncanny stuff when someone dual wields.
1) start off the fight with an assassination attempt for full marks of shadow (I think you can assassinate jotuns?!). Then run, ninjitsu heal, dirt kick to initiate, follow up with uncanny attack to disarm him. At least the marks of shadow will give you a damage boost throughout the fight.
2) His shield wall is a strong counter to your dual wield, but costs mana, and you’d already lost 150 health when he used it. So when he uses it, run and ninjitsu heal. Toy with him a bit by letting him chase you, and then Re-engage with dirt kick.
3) if you can afford to (i.e., he’s already blinded and disarmed), bypass defenses with shurikens.
Watching these logs of various classes vs. pallies, it just seems like squaring up against them NEVER works, even if you are a neutral warrior. The balance and fairness of that is discussion for the forum. But as for a potentially winning strategy, a pally’s biggest weakness is their mana pool. Play the attrition game with them to try to drain their resources. As a shadow, you excel at managing your resources. You can even resort to clobbering pixies to get mana back, so take him for some loops around the Emerald Forest (or somewhere a bit farther from town). Keep your various poisons applied to him to reduce his tic regen or force him to cure poison. Maybe if you’re lucky, you’ll force him to word of recall! :)
[reply to lionSpyre]
Ashlyn 
0 , 0 , 0 . We're seeing the progression through paladin specs as things get balanced out, first the rash of eradicators, now a bunch of protection pallies. I think shield spike is a good idea, but I would like to see some sort of maintenance required for it, maybe like 5 mana per hit, or even something along the lines of having to heal it like shaman heads? Davairus 0 , 0 , 0 . Shadows lack easy offensive tools to get around shield block (e.g. axes, barrage). I'm not really sure if its cheesy so much as just being the worst nightmare for a shadow. Shield block is designed to use vs heavy melee... and probably more necessary than not, considering how high damage a shadow's dual wield melee is. Chul could have maybe tried a shuriken throwing/ikuzachi approach from counterbalance. Maybe nunchukas could do the axe affect (i.e. the defenses reductions, not the one where ladies just swoon over you). This being exotic could bait the paladin onto a mace and cause less shield spikes because there's more parrying, so you then have less pressure from the pally, and can supplement damage with spells and throwing stars that pass right through defenses. Shield block was already a bitch for shadows before spikes.
Xenyar 
0 , 0 , 0 . It should be a passive skill. Looks more like a go-to for damage output instead. Rework it and get rid of the opponent triggering the shield block. Maybe change it to have a chance to hit once a round at a 30% roll on those attempts. Xenyar 
0 , 0 , 0 . Changing it to a chance to hit every round on an independent die roll, it would be equal across the board for all races, instead of jotun and dwarf benefitting more from it like it is now. Davairus 0 , 0 , 0 . OK, so, it is definitely intended to work better vs people who hit much more often. It could occur once per round per opponent if there was a successful shield block, and then whether the guy is spamming attacks on you with dual wield is going to be more important than if you had an extra 3 wis or something.
hamsandwich 
0 , 0 , 0 . riposte procs on parry only? Makes sense. An overbeared mace in reflex mode against dual wielded flails hasted warrior. rofl. Bartle 0 , 0 , 0 . I can definitely provide the level 50 warrior with riposte trained and 1% dodge! Only human though.... Davairus 0 , 0 , 0 . Well I dont want to leave this to go to hell like I did with fencing but I do want to investigate. Besides the AC issue. I was able to find that the prong can apparently be enchanted to 5/5. I would like to hear about how this feels from the paladin side as (unlike fencing) this has taken about six months to become a issue hamsandwich 
0 , 0 , 0 . Is there a way to change it so it doesn't proc on the "bad" shield blocks? Idk if that's a proper solution, but it'll at least decrease the amount of spikes that happen. So if it's one of those "shield wobbles and barely deflects" then it doesn't do spike damage. Tyrgard 0 , 0 , 0 . So, Dav. I was using the prong enchanted before which was a nice bonus, but since I obtained another spike I don’t use it at all as the shield spikes were lower damage than compared with the new spike. I felt it was kind of cheesy though, like how people used to enchant javelins for the extra bit/dam. Davairus 0 , 0 , 0 . I really like the decent shield blocks suggestion. IrishMidnight 0 , 0 , 0 . I'm confused... And not to derail the OP, but dodging. In my head I'd think defenses are checked in a particular order (unless stance or something is a factor) in that: Fralthor 0 , 0 , 0 . Going off of Dav's post and not attempting to derail from the subject, but what about warrior specs. Even slightly, a skill here or there. One idea I had came after reading Dav's post about riposte and not practicing dodge. What if, the warrior can opt to lose dodge, and instead gain 'enhanced armor'. Could either be similar to holy/unholy armor, or If that's too mundane, could instead enhance slot multipliers by 1 or whatever. Just my thoughts. Davairus 0 , 0 , 0 . Sounds interesting. maybe we could just do eq that reduces your dex by like -3 too IrishMidnight 0 , 0 , 0 . Why would minus dex gear be a good idea? Can't tell if you're serious or being snarky, but correct me - wouldn't -dex affect other skills poorly that might rely on a dex check?
[reply to Xenyar]It seems like it isnt checking pierce AC for any DR, which is a mistake. And this may be a much larger issue than just spikes. Putting that aside, for now, I can agree it definitely seems like it shouldnt be doing 50% of the players total damage, but then whats the reasonable number. 10%? 15%? 20%?
Also, we need to keep reminding ourselves that what it driving the damage is mainly that opponent is triggering shield block, so this would currently be way more shit on elf paladins than dwarf paladins. We dont need the protection spec pigeon holed to one race. I think in the long run we'll need to give other permanent attachment choices for shields (e.g. a shield block chance attachment, or reduced shield disarm chance, or +saves attachment for vs mages, or +armor for an elf to apply to make up for their bad defense stat) so this would sit among other available options for investment. That way there is clearer comparitive balance for us to review it, with some potential for "buyers remorse".
Or, a 20% chance each time the shield blocks an attack. Could be none, or could be a few landed in a round.
Just brainstorming...
Not to change the subject, I think it would be interesting if somebody with a fire/stone giant warrior and left dodge at 1% just to see how buff that makes riposte. That could cause riposte to hit a shit ton. it deals a full hit, not this weak shield spike stuff. with high hp, resistant skin, flails wielded, all out damage, that might legitimately obliterate somebody. Practicing dodge makes a warrior defense better but also literally lowers their offense because they dodge without trying riposte. I would love to see how well that works
Combat first checks parry, if success, check riposte, if parry failed, check for dodge... I'd hope it IS more complicated based on weapon match up and combat advantage, but purposely nerfing your own dodge skill to improve parry/riposte feels... Wrong?
hamsandwich 
0 , 0 , 0 . Yeah. There's that log of Thoom and Baloth. That one was close. But Thoom doesn't lose often, and if a decked out neutral warrior warlord loses to a paladin, wtf is an evil warrior supposed to do? Davairus 0 , 0 , 0 . If you had two warriors equally geared and skilled, and one isnt a Warlord, who wins and why? hamsandwich 
0 , 0 , 0 . depends on what powers the warlord has, which we aren't allowed to talk about here. Davairus 0 , 0 , 0 . and what does a paladin have that a warlord doesnt have hamsandwich 
0 , 0 , 0 . lol ton of shit. Sanc. Just get to your point.
Ashlyn 
0 , 0 , 0 . The answer to that riddle is healing, and more effective damage reduction. Davairus 0 , 0 , 0 . for a challenge... Abellyith 0 , 0 , 0 . yus no havva unnerstann sammich. Jus know meh know wha meh know and meh knowing dis non good. Davairus 0 , 0 , 0 . I will give warriors a bit of relief vs paladins with sideswipe + hobble today, I don't see any reason for this to wait.
hamsandwich 
0 , 0 , 0 . yeah I don't disagree Dav. I don't think ANYONE should be spanking ANYONE just because. That's the problem. My comment that a neutral warrior can't beat a paladin doesn't mean that that's wrong, it was just a way to express how awful the situation is for an evil by comparison. Ya know? I also pointed out that the neutral vs paladin matchup was really close, so no harm there. Based on that *n=1* example the situation doesn't seem bad. But we know that an evil warrior would be in a worse situation.
Davairus 0 , 0 , 0 . Evils have a few gameplay disadvantages, for sure, but they also have way more fun. So it's worth it to occasionally deal with a big dumbass pally Borgharv 2 , 0 , 0 . I like the warrior changes listed above: thanks for the quick action on this. Here are some comments to other things in this thread:
Chul 1 , 2 , 0 . Yeah exactly. Shamans have been buffed so much that Borgharv's lazy ass just expects to win by doing nothing. Bladefury BANNED 0 , 0 , 0 . I felt borgharvs comment to my core. I've been trying to freaking armor for a week real time 🙄 Borgharv 1 , 0 , 0 . You may have been referencing what other people were saying about you in this log, Chul, and thus were being intentionally facetious. But, to be clear, I never said that I expected to “win by doing nothing”. Anytime I fight anyone I have to toggle between half a dozen different strategies, entirely dependent on what my opponent does. The one time I did get lazy, I got punished (by a paladin, go figure). Considered that one a lesson learned. Lumubella 0 , 0 , 0 . I don't get why evils arent banding together and gangbanging super aggressive paladins. Our 2v1 was pretty fun, shame you both logged. Chul 0 , 0 , 0 . No dude lol maybe you missed my point. I am just making fun of hamsandwhich because he says the dumbest shit in reference to logs. I am sure most of you would agree but when you fight someone you can tell their skill level relatively quickly. And in a fight you can tell how hard someone has to work vs how little is needed to win a fight. And this log doesn't show the overall shadow vs paladin experience, but I have fought a few paladins and unless the paladin is a complete moron and fights without sanc I am not winning this fight. Could I win the fight by constant running and healing, while his spells to up keep cost a lot more than mine. Of course! But is my chance of getting killed higher than me killing him I think so. Fighting paladins right now doesn't feel like a 50/50 win rate hell even 60/40. To me it feels like 80/20 and maybe thats fine, but I am less willing to try for that 20% hamsandwich 
1 , 0 , 0 . That's fair Chul. You're right. Borgharv 0 , 0 , 0 . I think I got what you were saying Chul, selfishly I was just trying to save face a little bit and vent some of my current thoughts about being a shaman in this pally-driven world (probably not the place for it). As I've said, it's a lot better than most other evils, and I empathize with your plight.
Lumubella 0 , 0 , 0 . sounds like we need an anti-hero Borgharv 2 , 0 , 0 . Don't you dare say his name... lest he rises back from the Ghetto... to take back what was never his...
[reply to Abellyith]So while it's borderline impossible to know wtf Abellyith is even saying here, I think I agree.
The response is going to be that paladin's are supposed to beat evil warriors. So... I guess just don't fight them because you can't win. Hell, neutrals can't even win.
But if it's a rank 1 and all he's got is tenacity. Warlord loses.
Tenacity < sanc
Even if he has other powers... maybe still the Warlord loses? What am I missing?
Man why does anyone play Warlords? lol
But I think you guys need to stop trying to mandate that neutral warriors should just spank paladins. It makes it sounds like you are picking neuts to bypass protection and evade wrath damage. If you are suspected of doing that, just expect paladins to "punish" you (literally) and the imms won't get in the way of it. Paladins dont auto-spank neutrals because they are neutrals, but this does not mean the converse should be true at all. Neither should it be the case that paladins smoke evil warriors with minor challenge. That should be a decent fight if the warrior successfully pressures the pally. We cant help RNG making all dirts/bashes/trips/disarms just missing a lot. it happens, and the warrior would fare poorly if so.
What exactly is the sideswipe + hobble thing about?
Occasionally? All I've fought are paladins (except for a brief stint with Lumubella that I wished could have gone for longer). Most of them are clearly pretty skilled players (geared up quickly, know how to track / when to run). At least I have the ability to heal and run effectively. Heart goes out to practically any other evil class that can't do the same.
As for 'way more fun', I've tried to hit three dungeons since reaching pinnacle. Only one was hit successfully (but was practically empty). The other two were broken up by a single paladin, despite having two other evils in the party. So.. I think paladins are having 'way more fun' than any evil right now.
The point in this little rant is:
1) Tons of active paladins right now (naturally because they're a very strong class and people want to dunk on others with minimal effort)
2) Paladins are strong enough to raid a party of three evils with impunity
3) They are harassing evils enough that the evils can't even gear up, even when they outnumber the paladins.
Granted, paladins are way fucking strong right now. So he's not totally off base by saying he has no chance here. But he didn't even try in this log.
Do you whine every time you don't win? Yes. Could you have tried harder in this log? Yes. But you're right, it's clear that beating Toland is not something that's gonna happen easily or often, shadow or otherwise. And just dipping out instead of trying again is perfectly reasonable, so I shouldn't fault you for that.
@Lumubella, that was a lot of fun! But unfortunately real life comes in occasionally and cuts the fun short. To answer your question about ganking, look at my comment above. Most competent paladins will actually WIN the 2v1, unless there is a major gear discrepancy. As of right now, that gear discrepancy is in their favor. Most evils aren't even able to get gear because their ability to raid dungeons for gear is being shut down by a single paladin. At least, that has been my experience for 2/3 dungeons.
Bladefury BANNED 0 , 1 , 0 . Thats because the good aligns are stuck on permagrouping and keeping on OOC conversations. I would love to see the game back before paladin split. Imo this to me ruined everything. Kali 0 , 0 , 0 . Don’t just assume people grouping to go adventuring is organized OOC. One of the benefits of being good aligned is the proclivity to make friends. When you have several active good aligns you are bound to see friendships form and adventuring parties propagate - especially when there are a handful of really active goods around. It could just as easily be the other way and probably will eventually - the pendulum always swings. Lumubella 0 , 0 , 0 . I don't know anything about any OOC or Permagrouping BF. I happen to be in a ton of groups lately due to being super active right now. I do suspect a bit of the "grass is greener" mentality and people rolling good aligned or logging on their good aligns when fun stuff is going on though.
[reply to Zanward]Davairus 0 , 0 , 0 . What do you mean having to strangle? assasinate was so high that you would just flee/assassinate instead and it was better than that. strangles just a myth we propogated. assassinate had a 10% chance to work Ashlyn 
1 , 0 , 0 . See this is the problem with misinformation. You believe it. It was actually terrifying having to drink brew and such to try to prevent it and still having Nadoshi/Aelseran using energy scrolls on you to Assassinate you.
[reply to Ashlyn]hamsandwich 
0 , 0 , 0 . Yeah exactly. Shadows have been buffed so much that Chul's lazy ass just expects to win by doing nothing.
[reply to Ashlyn]Granted, paladins are way fucking strong right now. So he's not totally off base by saying he has no chance here. But he didn't even try in this log.