Ye Olde Abandoned Realms Logs

Overpowered overhead crush is brutal and maybe broken

posted on 2022-12-17 22:14:47
Here's a typical series of rounds with me and Kryton when he manages to land an overhead crush (Notes: protective shield is worthless (I had it active), and wearing a shield doesn't stop the overhead crush from landing):

Kryton raises aloft 'Un-Rkizk', Trident of Massacre for a mighty overhead attack!
Your shock mauls Kryton.
[* ] You block Kryton's attack with your shield.
Kryton has quite a few wounds.

<87%hp 78%mp 67%mv $10039 bloody:120 3pm (day) [##########]><city (outside)><> Your exorcism hits Kryton.
Kryton has quite a few wounds.

<87%hp 76%mp 67%mv $10039 bloody:120 3pm (day) [##########]><city (outside)><>
Kryton surges with power.
Kryton's overpowered crush shatters your protective shield!
Your weapon is easily overwhelmed by Kryton's overhead crush.
Kryton's overhead crush DISMEMBERS you!
You have been grounded temporarily!
Kryton disarms you!
You are knocked to your knees.
Kryton has quite a few wounds.

<78%hp 76%mp 67%mv $10039 bloody:120 3pm (day) [##########]><city (outside)><>

Your punch injures Kryton.
[** ] Kryton parries your punch.
Kryton's acidic bite MUTILATES you!
[** ] You block Kryton's attack with your shield.
Kryton has quite a few wounds.

<72%hp 76%mp 67%mv $10039 bloody:120 3pm (day) [##########]><city (outside)><>

Kryton relaxes his grip on his weapon.
Kryton wields a bloodstone dagger in his off-hand.
Kryton has quite a few wounds.

<72%hp 76%mp 67%mv $10039 bloody:120 3pm (day) [##########]><city (outside)><>
Kryton's acidic bite mauls you.
Kryton's acidic bite devastates you!
[* ] Kryton dual parries your punch.
Kryton has quite a few wounds.

<63%hp 76%mp 67%mv $10039 bloody:120 3pm (day) [##########]><city (outside)><>
Kryton surges with power.
Kryton sends you sprawling with a powerful bash!
Kryton's bash hits you.
Kryton has quite a few wounds.

<62%hp 76%mp 67%mv $10039 bloody:120 3pm (day) [##########]><city (outside)><>
Kryton's acidic bite MUTILATES you!
Kryton's acidic bite maims you!
[***] Kryton dodges your punch.
Kryton has quite a few wounds.

<51%hp 76%mp 67%mv $10039 bloody:120 3pm (day) [##########]><city (outside)><>
You feel less wobbly on your feet.
Kryton has quite a few wounds.

<51%hp 76%mp 67%mv $10039 bloody:120 3pm (day) [##########]><city (outside)><> You flee from combat!
The Western Promenade
* +| A stone-laden road stretches from east to west through
| || this grass covered plateau. The masonry on the stonework
* + +| has a simple elegance - smooth and sharply defined at
| | || its edges, seamless in its procession across the ground
+-+-@-+-+| it has been laid down on. It marries the man-made with
| || the work of mother nature, creating a bond for both to
* o-+| benefit from. Valourian flags, bearing the motif of the
|| Hallowed Crown of Queen Victoria, have been raised to
o-+| their greatest height, flying proudly atop white poles.

[Exits: north east west]

Does anyone else thing this is wrong? I'm tempted to say wearing a shield and not retaliating against an overhead crush is a bug...


  1. Yeah that's crazy OP. Should maybe have more windup lag if it's gonna break prot shield (and break fly?).
    1. There is a short period of lag in which I can act but it's a very short period of opportunity. I might add you're seeing him bash another giant so this would be even nastier if I were a halfling or even a medium sized race.
    2. Yeah when overhead first came out it had a longer windup lag than current version. At some point the windup lag was decreased. Now you can do it every other round (see the Skeggi vs Szrevan log to see just how brutal it is to hit a demolish through sanc and prevent damage via raking every other round).
    [reply to Kalist19]
  2. So. Attempting to change the gameplay by calling it a bug is obviously acting in self-interest, whereas player of Kryton will not file that bug. I think if 3 or more other uninvolved players call it a bug, that'd be different.

    As for me, I do think it is a bug. shattering a protective shield with overhead should be the limit for that maneuver. I think if overhead shattered a prot shield, it should stop.... It shouldnt then continue also dispel flying, disarm, lag for so long afterward that the warrior can also bash. and that outcome should require that getting overheaded was a colossal fuck up and not just because failed to flee in time with prot shield active.

    if theres' general sentiment that is a bug then I will fix it sooner. Otherwise I will just do it for patch
    1. The other part of it which everyone missed... I'm wearing a shield (not as in the spell), and that doesn't block overhead crush... Is that not a thing any more?
    2. I dont think shields ever mattered for the classes with weapon ward.
    3. In the case of this one, Healers don't have weapon ward, whereas it disarmed through weapon ward when fighting me, a class with weapon ward. All the effects at once is too much, I agree, it makes the ONLY option become running away and resetting the fight, in which they can just do it again.
    4. Weapon ward never blocked overhead crush as far as I know... It says, "Countered by protective shield", not "countered by weapon ward"
    5. His statement about shields and weapon warfare was in reference to combat style matchup. Neutral style I'd you have weapon ward. Not the case in your case.
    6. Defensive style > two-handed style though...?
    7. because I clearly remember countering with (and being countered by) a shield (like a buckler or kite shield, NOT protective shield) when somebody was overhead crushing... They'd block the attack and then strike back. I repeat, is that not a thing any more? That was my original question right after Dav's initial comment.
    8. I think overhead got changed somewhere along the way. I was fighting Bomgrom, and he overheaded, I switched to shield...he still crushed and lagged me. I wish I logged it because it said something along the lines of "he sees the shield switch coming and power throughs it".. or something... that is not verbatim of course. I do not remember exactly what it said.
    9. @kryton yeah at some patch change there was a thing saying 'you must wear a shield at the exact right time. if you wear it too early or too late you still get the overhead' - something like that.

      I have nothing to do with this fight and I would say it looks like a bug/needs update.
    10. Just want to say, I noticed what Kryton and Kalist said about the shield timing within the last few days for blocking overhead crush. Thank you, gentlemen.
    [reply to Davairus]
  3. Bladefury BANNED [reply]
    0 , 0 , 1 .
    I got a message from someone not saying telling me to roll a warrior right now cause of this. Huh maybe it's furhammer time
    1. (removed)
      1 , 0 , 4 .
    2. Removing comment for being a dick.
    [reply to Bladefury]
  4. Why not just make it easier to interrupt? Like taking damage from a spell (exorcism, icicle) or a kick can interrupt it. It may need some tuning down, but I would vote against getting rid of the lag it imposes. Warriors generally get steam rolled by clerics and invokers (unless your Kryton) because of attrition. Overpower overhead at least changes things up and gives the warrior a real weapon against them other than flee murders. If it’s easier to interrupt, it can create these interesting mind-games between the cleric/mage and the warrior, one trying to bait the other into making a mistake.
      [reply to lionSpyre]
    1. As of now, I think overhead causing all those affects is a bit much. Disarm and grounded, to be more specific. The lag part is common on all opponents when you land it. Now if you can land overhead while their protective shield isn't up, then the disarm and grounded affect should come into play.
      As LionSpyre said, without overhead, you are stuck with flee/murder. Increasing windup lag may render the skill useless, as that's already a decent bit of time.
      1. Windup is 1 round. Can land frequent AF.

        This is way shorter cd than it used to have.
      2. And it used to be borderline useless.
      3. That's fair, Kryton. Since the other physical fighter type classes have ways of destroying protective shields anyway, I think it's actually fair to give the warriors one as well. (I'm thinking specifically of the guilds allowed into the Warlords by default)
      4. Prob shouldn’t lag + cancel fly + disarm + demolish (dismember through sanc) all at the same time as popping, allowing to follow up with bash tho. Let the mage have time to flee and put it up again.
      5. I think Kryton outlined it well. If protective shield is up, have it damage, pop shield, and lag. If protective shield isn't up, then all the things. Without the lag, the damage is more bark than bite because it's easy to punish.
      6. So I think the prot shell popping should require the warcry buff instead of overpower. that way, to get gibbed requires the mage toliterally ignore the warcry that just happened when the overhead starts and does his exorcism, and we'd enjoy the log instead of calling it a bug probably. so if you prefer a more lethal overhead crush vs mage thats going to be the way to do it. it also makes it more strategic (save warcry = lower saves) and less spammable.

        I think mage players would still prefer it to stop at shield pop because they are dead if they are chain bashed usually. at the very least weapon ward still stop the disarm
      7. This is a cool idea, but I’ve had some experience with this lately. I think we’re over estimating the effect of landing overpower overhead.

        1) Zatoke would have beaten me in that last log had I not landed a lucky sandstorm, look at the input for their icicle spell in the last round. Had that landed, I’d have died. So even with overpower overhead being pretty OP, it still wouldn’t have been enough. Sure it’s an ice mage against and ogre. But there’s something to be said there.

        2) I had a long back-and-forth with Baewyn, and they seem to have adjusted very well to overpower overhead. They were ready for it, and the only time I was able to land it was when I anticipated they would initiate combat (sometimes they didn’t for this very reason). Ultimately, they just got some distance after my follow-up bash and reset. More often than not, they were able to punish me a lot for going for an overpower overhead when they were ready by flee-murdering.

        In other words, popping the protective shield and all the subsequent side effects doesn’t lead to instant steamroll. Personally I felt this was kind of nice, because it gave me something to at least drain the casters resources over long drawn-out battles. If this only had a chance of landing once every 24 hours, we’d have maybe one lucky round and then it’s bad to flee murders.
      8. If this was vs any uncaballed illusionist it would be a very different story.
      9. Maybe. I’ve also leaned towards flee-murders with illusionists anyways just to minimize the number of rounds I sit in combat with hasted dupes. So I’m not sure how much I would use overpower overhead unless I really had them on the ropes and was looking to finish them off. But I’m also not really a tactical wizard, I just smash. Next time I see one I’ll let you know.
      10. just throwing my 2 cents in, you could have an overpowered overhead smash have a chance at breaking protective shield.

        you could have a mastered protective shield have a chance at blocking an overpowered overhead smash.

        the overpowered protective shield could be a direct relation to spellcraft or spell mastery or something.

        I just feel like an overpowered overhead smash attack on a mage who has a protective shield would depend upon their focus (meditation?) and spell master to determine how strong it is versus the small, medium, or large sized race charging at you

        maybe str or dex could play a part in this?
      11. Let me reiterate;

        I just feel like an overpowered overhead smash attack on a mage with protective shield would depend upon the warriors STR and obviously the mastery of the skill overhead smash.

        The mage's dependency is left up to debate, but I would think it would be mastery of the spell or spellcraft. I only said meditation because I couldn't remember if all mages had spellcraft.
      12. Overhead linked to warcry is tough. Once every 24 hours.. and what if you miss it because they flee? Attempting an overpower move still does something out of combat, like draining moves. So if they flee when attempting the warcry/overhead, would that waste your only chance at it? This seems like a tougher one to balance. I say start gradual and work into it more regarding tweaking. Like I mentioned above, start with eliminating disarm/grounded effect when popping protective shield. If they don't have Pshield up, then disarm/grounded comes into effect.
      13. This half-measures suggestion of "just remove the disarm/grounded (meaning keep the lag and damage)" does not address the problem in any way whatsover. It misses the point that prot shield purpose is a contingency spell for lag. Its not cast simply to protect from getting lagged.... its cast incase the opponent tries to lag you. each time you cast it, you throw away 75 mana while the warrior can simply not bother trying. It doesnt have any extra benefits and it doesn't have any other influence over anything. Its a mana tax for being a mage.

        But lets back up even further with this. Why on earth does mastered overhead crush shatter protective shield? Why are we wasting the mental effort and potential coding time on trying to make this lemon of an idea work. That's simply impossible to achieve because mages use it as contingency. There's really only one solution an intelligent mage player will accept. That is one that puts that contingency back in place. i.e. make it telegraphed as I said with warcry, or just stop the overhead once the shield breaks. Or completely remove it, meaning for e.g. counter it by mastering the spell it as Arunore pointed out.. or whatever else but lagging through prot shield is a bug that needs to get rug pulled. 100% that is the problem and any game update which fails to address it head-on is totally worthless and a reason to quit AR.
      14. Radically different proposal: let mages cast protective shield in combat and if they bring it up during the wind up the effects are reversed and all that stuff happens to the warrior.

        Thematically its the difference between aiming to shatter the shield vs aiming for the head and the shield being a surprise.

        Tactically, it adds to the game of cat and mouse and gives mages a tactical reason to use cancelation. Or is that so risky nobody would dare leave it down anyway do this would do nothing to address the problem?
      15. "Why on earth does mastered overhead crush shatter protective shield?" That's a good question. Just revert it to how it use to be is probably the easiest solution.
      16. After seeing all of this get hashed out, I can see both sides of the argument. Mages specifically throw up protective shield to stop lag abilities, so giving warriors a spammable ability that breaks it feels bad. Sure, you can bypass the ability by fleeing, but this is a lot easier for clerics than it is for true mages.

        On the other hand, I think this ability was brought in to give warriors something to do against a mage other than flee-murder. Let's look at some of the big warriors over the lats two years: Thoom, Szrevan, Jinjarak... all of them were taken down and subsequently deleted after fighting and getting full looted by a cleric or mage. In short, warriors are famously bad against these classes. Importantly, when I play warriors, I don't really enjoy fighting mages/clerics for this very reason. If I fight warrior classes, I get to utilize all of my abilities and play the fun rock-paper-scissors combat/weapon style advantage. Against clerics/mages, it's flee-murder and hope you can chase them down before they outheal you. It makes for less dynamic and fun gameplay.

        The remedy here is to find a way for warriors to use an effective combat ability without completely negating a mage/cleric's high-cost defensive measure. What that looks like exactly, I'm not sure. But I think tying it to warcry will just result in a reversion to the old norm (which people have expressed discontent for), and I think keeping it as is or keeping the lag feels bad for mages/clerics.

        Whatever is done, maybe a half-measure that helps is giving protective shield an aura (blue?). At least then warriors could capitalize on a cleric or mage who doesn't do their due diligence against them.
      17. Tying it to warcry might not be a bad option. Put a 4-5 hour timer on it to use the OP overhead. Similar to victory rush timer for charge after warcry.
      18. I think between tying it to warcry or stopping the overhead when the shield breaks, I’d prefer the latter. At least it keeps gameplay dynamic. Still throwing in that protective shield should have an aura then as well.
      19. Why does it need an Aura when you can get the answer at the cost of a single bash attempt?
      20. Warriors don't have healing, so every round counts. Two rounds due to a failed bash is brutal. That's enough time for a cleric to get lots of distance and heal +200hp. Enough time for an invoker to pop off 1-2 major damage spells. Two rounds of summons against an invoker/necro. Take your pick.
      21. Makes sense. I just don't love how all the auras look on the screen but if it's critical for balance so be it. Just kind of wish there was another way. Maybe a print out about the shield flashing when you dirt kick? That's something you're probably doing anyway that is thematic ... suppose I'm reaching here for an unnecessary alternative
      22. I like warcry + weapon ward blocking disarm (and I guess that blocks everything after disarm). So in this healers case they would have seen it coming because they saw the warcry and could then hold off exorcism to prudence or flee from warcry which is probably funny for the warrior to see
      23. Other than dynamics, I think the main issue I take with this route is that warriors already lower their hit/dam to fight clerics and mages. So you're asking them to lower hit even further (and take less afflictive saves) for the CHANCE to get 2-3 rounds of uninterrupted combat off on their opponent. One of those rounds won't be at combat advantage, so it's 1-2 rounds of concentrated damage. Unless you're working with some incredible equipment, this is a steep hill for most warriors to climb.
      24. ^All of this is contingent on the fact, btw, that you're saving your OP overhead for the right moment when the cleric/mage is sufficiently weak. If you do it too early, they'll just run and reset.
      25. kick dirt in a one-exit room instead of following the healer to the river
      [reply to Kryton]
    2. Or you just flee on the overhead.
        [reply to Ashlyn]
      1. It seems like a change gets made unbeknownst to the IMPs, class benefits, community calls foul, then the solution is revert the change? How are skill’s just being changed without oversight?
        1. Well half a million lines of code is going to have some bugs, right? Even if we had the budget / manpower to staff a QA team for the game, things would get through. Its important to have players that are capable of recognizing things that are too good to be true. Not everybody can do that. Seems like being on the receiving end is how we usually wake up.
        2. Not trying to be smart here but sometimes you don't know what is intended or what is a bug. Like a specific newer cabal skill, or mercs erasing half your damage.
          I also thought this overhead thing came to light in this log...Nothing came of it. So how are we suppose to know what is or it's intended?

          I used overhead on one caster, ever. That's Baeywn. As seen above, I agreed it needs changed. I think we all agree it needs fixed. Up to you to find the best solution. You typically come up with good updates, I'm sure you will this time too.
        3. well we're going to keep glitches if we like the result too. you just have to follow the mantra "does it seem good to be true" and that is about all you need to identify a problem. like anything making gold faster than 1k/minute .
        [reply to Stiehl26]
      2. fix is done
          [reply to Davairus]

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